Laborers-Michael Corbitt's Testimony








6 _______________________________________________________





DATE: August 13, 1997


TIME: Began: 9:30 a. m.

11 Ended: 2:00 p. m.

12 PLACE: Coleman Federal Correctional


13 Bushnell, Florida


Shorthand Reporter

15 Notary Public State of

Florida at Large


17 Pages 1 - 166









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Attorney at Law

3 Vaira & Riley, P. A.

1600 Market Street - Suite 2650

4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103

5 Hearing Officer



7 Attorney at Law

Comey Boyd & Luskin, P. A.

8 1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N. W.

Suite 420 East

9 Washington, D. C. 20007-5243

10 Attorney for GEB Laborers' Union



12 Attorney at Law

Carmell Charone Widner Mathews & Moss, Ltd.

13 225 West Washington Street - Suite 1000

Chicago, Illinois 60606


Attorney for the Chicago District






Inspector General's Office



20 Hearing Officer Assistant




FBI Tampa, Florida


24 JOE GRIFFIN (Appeared by Telephone)

25 Inspector General's Office

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1 I N D E X


2 Examination by Mr. Bostwick 4

Examination by Mr. Carmell 117

3 Examination Continued by Mr. Bostwick 161

Examination Continued by Mr. Carmell 163

4 Certificates of Reporter 165, 166

Key Word Indexing


6 E X H I B I T S

7 Number Description Page

8 50 Memorandum from Larry Damron 29

164A Photograph 41

9 164B Photograph 41

164C Photograph 71

10 168B Interior Sketch of Counselor's Row 84

179 Private Security Pass to Pat Marcy's

11 Home in Hinsdale 100

20 Indictment 114

12 21 Verdict 114

(Exhibits not attached)














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1 The testimony of MICHAEL CORBITT taken

2 this 13th day of August, 1997, by Elizabeth Gotch,

3 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public for the

4 State of Florida at Large, at Coleman Federal

5 Correctional Institution, Bushnell, Sumter County,

6 Florida, beginning at the hour of 9:30 a. m.

7 * * * * *

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: We'll now go on the

9 record and Mr. Bostwick will proceed.

10 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd ask that our witness be

11 sworn in. The witness' name is Michael Corbitt.

12 Whereupon:


14 having been first duly sworn on oath, was examined and

15 testified as follows:

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: The record indicates

17 that the witness has been sworn. Mr. Corbitt will be

18 questioned this morning by Mr. Bostwick.



21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Corbitt. Could you state

22 your name and spell your last name for the record.

23 A. My name is Michael Corbitt, C-O-R-B-I-T-T.

24 Q. What is your current age?

25 A. Fifty-three.

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1 Q. What is your present location here?

2 A. I'm in a federal correctional institute in

3 Florida.

4 Q. You're serving a prison sentence?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. What is the length of that sentence?

7 A. Twenty years.

8 Q. Are you serving a sentence for more than one

9 conviction?

10 A. Three convictions.

11 Q. Could you tell us about those convictions,

12 please, in order.

13 A. Tell you what they are or --

14 Q. That's correct, what they are.

15 A. Racketeering, racketeering conspiracy, and

16 obstructing justice.

17 Q. Let's take the first one now, racketeering.

18 Could you tell us when that conviction occurred and what

19 the general nature of it was?

20 A. The conviction was in 1988. I plead guilty to

21 several counts of racketeering, racketeering conspiracy,

22 extortion, bribery.

23 Q. Was this related in any way to organized crime

24 in the Chicago area?

25 A. Yes, it was.

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1 Q. How about your second conviction?

2 A. My second conviction was for extortion and

3 racketeering conspiracy, and that was in 1989.

4 Q. How about the third?

5 A. Obstruction of justice, and that was in 1991.

6 Q. What did that relate to?

7 A. My first racketeering case, I was charged with

8 altering documents that were submitted to the court.

9 Q. In the first two, racketeering and

10 racketeering conspiracy, could you give us a brief

11 subject matter of what that related to.

12 A. In the first racketeering case, I was charged

13 with soliciting bribes from chop shop operators,

14 soliciting bribes from mob figures to approve

15 bookmaking operations in my community and other bribery

16 counts.

17 My second conviction --

18 Q. Let me stop you right there. On the first

19 one, what position did you hold, if any, when you were

20 soliciting these chop shop offers and bribes?

21 A. I was the Chief of Police of the suburb of

22 Willow Springs, Illinois.

23 Q. Now go on to the second one, if you will, and

24 tell us a little bit about that conviction.

25 A. The second involved racketeering conspiracy in

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1 which murder-for-hire was committed, other acts of

2 bribery and extortion involving attorneys and other mob

3 figures in Chicago.

4 Q. So the second conviction related to organized

5 crime in Chicago as well.

6 A. Yes, it did.

7 Q. Now let me get this clear at the outset. The

8 GEB Attorney's office here for LIUNA, the

9 Laboror's Union, has offered to consider making both the

10 fact that you've testified here today and the substance

11 of that testimony available to your sentencing judge for

12 consideration. Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Who will make the ultimate determination, if

15 any, as to whether that results in any different

16 disposition of your sentence.

17 A. That's correct. But it's almost irrelevant.

18 I've almost completed all of my time on my sentence so

19 it's really irrelevant.

20 Q. What's the time you're serving on your

21 sentence?

22 A. I'm serving the entire sentence, two-thirds of

23 an old law twenty-year sentence, which is

24 eleven years, nine months. In October, I complete ten

25 years of my sentence.

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1 THE HEARING OFFICER: The question is, does

2 the judge really have any jurisdiction to do anything

3 about it anyway at this point?

4 THE WITNESS: It's really irrelevant. It

5 doesn't make any difference anyway.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't know what he can

7 -- I mean, what he has to do. I think the judge loses

8 jurisdiction.

9 But anyway, go ahead.

10 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Has the government made any

11 promises to you in exchange for your testimony here

12 today?

13 A. Absolutely not.

14 Q. Have you ever provided testimony for the

15 government in any context?

16 A. I've done several proffers on my case. Other

17 than that, nothing.

18 Q. No sworn testimony.

19 A. No sworn testimony.

20 Q. Mr. Corbitt, you testified that you served on

21 the police force in the Chicago area. Could you give us

22 a brief overview of the time periods that you held

23 positions in the police department and the positions you

24 held?

25 A. In 1965, I was appointed as a patrolman to the

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1 Willow Springs Police Department, which is a small

2 suburb in Southwestern Cook County.

3 In 1967, I left and went to the

4 Village of Summit where I was a police officer for about

5 eighteen months, and then I returned to Willow Springs

6 Police Department in 1969.

7 In 1973, I became the chief of police and was

8 chief of police until 1981.

9 From 1981 to 1987, I carried a star from the

10 Cook County Sheriff's Department and was assigned to the

11 clerk of court as an investigator.

12 Q. 1987 is when --

13 A. In 1987, I was -- in 1986, I was indicted. In

14 1887, I was convicted on my first case.

15 Q. From your experience, Mr. Corbitt, how would

16 you define the term organized crime?

17 A. So you could be aware of it in the terms of

18 Chicago, I would describe it as a group of individuals

19 who are working to make money for themselves illegally

20 through different means, extortion, prostitution, juice

21 loans, that type of thing. It's a money-making

22 operation where you pay no taxes and no fees.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Would you say that they

24 are working at the business of crime?

25 THE WITNESS: The business of crime, yes.

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1 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) You've used the term "juice

2 loans". Could you describe what that is.

3 A. Juice loans is the lending of money at

4 exorbitant interest rates that never get paid off in

5 some cases and -- that's about it.

6 Q. You've heard of the term "street tax"?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. What's that?

9 A. Street tax. If you're running anything that

10 is remotely connected to any different crews, i. e.,

11 bookmaking, any type of gambling, prostitution,

12 pornography, you have to pay a street tax to whoever's

13 crew is responsible for that operation. That comes

14 right to them on a cash basis, sometimes weekly,

15 sometimes monthly.

16 Q. When you say "to them," who's them?

17 A. To the members of different crews, whoever's

18 responsible for that operation, whatever crew is

19 responsible for gambling, whatever crew is responsible

20 for prostitution. Whatever crew is responsible

21 bookmaking, they would get paid the street tax if you're

22 a bookmaker. If you're a bookmaker, they would pay the

23 street tax. Plus on some occasions, you're paying

24 street tax to them plus you're paying street tax to the

25 police department in the same situation.

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1 Q. How are crews related to organized crime?

2 A. The term crew is used very loosely, and they

3 are different areas of expertise, as they say it, in

4 their business. A certain crew of guys would be in

5 charge of the juice loan, lending of the money. Another

6 crew would be responsible for collecting the money.

7 Another crew would be responsible for making sure that

8 it got to the bosses and the different people who were

9 in charge of these crews.

10 It's a make-up of guys who are assigned a job

11 to do and that's what they do.

12 Q. All of this is in the context of the Chicago

13 outfit, you're talking about now.

14 A. Well Chicago outfit, mid western outfit,

15 whatever areas that they control, that's how that

16 operates.

17 Q. During the period of time you served on the

18 police force, did you ever participate in organized

19 criminal activity?

20 A. From the day I came on the job, I was involved

21 in organized crime activity until I left the job. From

22 that day.

23 Q. From the very day you began.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Did you associate with members and associates

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1 of the Chicago outfit as a police officer?

2 A. I certainly did.

3 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to that

4 term. That presupposes he knows who is an associate,

5 who is a member, what a member is, what an associate is.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let me have that

7 question again.

8 MR. BOSTWICK: Actually, it would be better to

9 establish the foundation on all of those topics.


11 Q. (BY MS. BOSTWICK) Can you describe for me in

12 your own words what a member of organized crime is as

13 opposed to an associate.

14 A. It's very difficult to do that, but I'll try

15 as best I can. You know, the terms made and all this

16 other stuff that you see in the media and you see on TV

17 and you hear all that, for thirty-some years I was

18 involved with these people, and as we go along I'll

19 explain who these people are.

20 Made is a term only of respect, how much

21 respect a certain guy is given and what kind of bag of

22 money he gets during the month.

23 Associate members are guys who are wannabes.

24 They want to get made, they want to be in a position to

25 have that power, so they're doing all the running

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1 around, making all the deals and handling the day-to-day

2 street operation.

3 The made guys, as you term them, are in a

4 position where they don't do anything. They just

5 collect. They just get their bag and that's it.

6 I mean, associate members I know -- I know to

7 get the terminology that you're using and I can describe

8 what position I think certain people were in, but to

9 describe made and associate and executive positions is a

10 pretty difficult to do.

11 Q. Did you associate during the period you served

12 on the police force with individuals who were associated

13 or who are made in the Chicago outfit?

14 A. In your terminology, I would say I did. Yes,

15 I did, absolutely.

16 Q. Well let's stick with your terminology now.

17 A. Okay. Yeah. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. What time did you leave the police force?

21 A. What time did I leave.

22 Q. Yes. What date, approximately?

23 A. You mean was I done off the police department?

24 Q. Right.

25 A. May of 1981.

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1 Q. From '81 to '87, you still held a badge at one

2 point. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I did, almost the entire time.

4 Q. How did that work? Tell me about that.

5 A. How did what work?

6 Q. How did it work that you held a badge but you

7 were off the police force?

8 A. After I was -- I was removed from the police

9 department in what you would say was a political coup.

10 Our town was strictly controlled by politics and other

11 things. And I lost my job after a mayor was elected who

12 wanted to reform the police department.

13 After that period of time, I went to my

14 township committeeman who was a personal friend of mine,

15 Morgan Finnley, and, you know, told him, you know, I've

16 been a policeman for twenty years. I need to carry a

17 gun, I need a badge. So they recommended that I come

18 down and work for him, which I did, as an investigator.

19 Shortly after I was there as an investigator,

20 I was taken up to Sheriff Elrod and I was sworn in as a

21 deputy sheriff's policeman and given a star which

22 permitted me again to carry a weapon.

23 Q. During this period of time, 1981 to 1987, did

24 you still participate in the affairs of the Chicago

25 outfit?

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1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. And actively associated with members and

3 associates of organized crime until you went to jail in

4 1987?

5 A. Absolutely. Up until the day I went to jail.

6 Q. Let's go back to the beginning, Mr. Corbitt.

7 How did you initially become involved in organized crime?

8 A. I was initially, and at the time not knowing

9 that I was involved in it, initially my first job as a

10 teenager was for a company called A & W Electric which

11 was in Summit, Illinois. It was owned by two brothers

12 Pete and Bill Altiere. They also had another guy who

13 was operating the company called -- I think it was Bill

14 White.

15 This company was a company that supplied slot

16 machines, gambling paraphernalia. As a background, the

17 company reworked and worked electric motors in the

18 front, but in the back they handled, you know, slot

19 machines and different machines.

20 I was a route guy. I would go out on a route

21 with another guy and we would pick up machines, slot

22 machines that were broken down and stuff like that and

23 bring them in and repair them.

24 From that point, I left there. And through

25 meeting a few people in there and telling them --

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1 expressing my desire to go into my own business, some

2 people helped me financially and I went into the gas

3 station business. I owned a gas station at 56th and

4 Harlem in Summit.

5 Q. Approximately how old were you at this time

6 when you owned the gas station?

7 A. Eighteen. I operated this gas station. And

8 while operating this gas station, the people who I had

9 met at A & W Electric started trading with me.

10 I had a large fenced -- half-fenced lot next

11 to my place which was owned by the gas station. And on

12 occasion these guys would come in and what to park a

13 truck there and leave it for a week or leave it

14 overnight, which I permitted them to do.

15 Q. When you say "these guys," who do you mean?

16 A. Different members of -- which I now know were

17 referred to as organized crime.

18 These trucks turned out to be hijacked

19 material, stolen material, and they would leave them

20 there. When they would pick them up, they would give me

21 an envelope with some money in it and thank you very

22 much.

23 And then I started to get a big trade in

24 different guys from these different crews of people and

25 one of them was Sam Giancanna. And Sam Giancanna and

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1 another -- several other guys, Dominic Blassi,

2 Marshall Caifano, John Caifano and other people, would

3 come there and leave their cars and be picked by up

4 other people and be gone for a day, sometimes two days,

5 sometimes three days, and leave their car with me. And

6 they started trading at my gas station on a daily basis.

7 Q. Who are these people, Sam Giancanna, the

8 individuals you just mentioned, Caifano?

9 A. Who are they as far as what?

10 Q. As far as organized criminal activity, to your

11 knowledge.

12 A. Sam Giancanna at the time was the ultimate

13 boss of organized in Chicago at that particular time.

14 Q. Approximately what period is that?

15 A. That was in the nineteen sixties, mid sixties.

16 Q. How long did you own this gas station?

17 A. I had it several years. Almost two years, I

18 believe.

19 Q. Now how about Caifano, the Caifanos that you

20 mentioned; who were they?

21 A. John Caifano was an upper echelon guy of

22 organized crime. And, you know, there were many other

23 people who used the gas station that were involved with

24 these different -- with these different crews. As we go

25 along, I'll think of their names. I know most of their

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1 names.

2 Do you want me to go on?

3 Q. No. Were you involved in assisting with the

4 criminal activities of others during this period?

5 A. Oh, sure. I stored their trucks, I stored

6 merchandise. They would bring merchandise in there from

7 the trunks of their cars and store it in my gas station

8 for some times up to a week, come and pick it up, take

9 it someplace else. You know, I would say I assisted

10 them.

11 Q. Did you receive money for this?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. How did you receive that?

14 A. They would give me an envelope, they'd give me

15 a hundred dollar bill, they'd give me a fifty dollar

16 bill. They were always very good to me.

17 Q. Did there come a time where you quit this gas

18 station business or left it?

19 A. There came a time when I was told by the

20 owners, who happened to be the Altiere brothers that I

21 worked for originally, they owned a supper club on

22 Harlem Avenue call the Forum and my gas station was

23 directly next door. They came in one day and told me,

24 listen, we need this place for parking. We're going to

25 level the gas station. We're going to put a parking lot

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1 in here. You're going to have to look for a job.

2 So several weeks after that occurred,

3 Sam Giancanna and Dominic Blassi came in. And they were

4 aware of what was going, and we had a conversation and

5 Sam Giancanna say what do you want to do?

6 I said I want to get a job. I want to make

7 some money.

8 He says do you want to be a policeman?

9 I said, no, I don't really want to be a

10 policeman.

11 He said, well, you know, it would a good thing

12 for you to, you know, get a job as a policeman and maybe

13 you could help us out once in a while.

14 At that point I was -- I had a young son, I

15 was newly married and I needed a job, and so I said,

16 yeah, I'll take the job as a policeman.

17 So he referred me to a mayor in

18 Willow Springs, John Rust. And I went out and had an

19 hour meeting with him and was sworn in in his tavern

20 that day as a police officer, that day. I think I was

21 twenty-one or twenty-two years old.

22 Q. That's how you got your start in the police

23 force?

24 A. That's how I got my start.

25 Q. Did you have a subsequent conversation after

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1 you were sworn in on the police force with

2 Sam Giancanna?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Can you tell us about that.

5 A. Several weeks after I was on the police

6 department, I was working an afternoon shift, and as I

7 came into the station, for some reason I saw Sam's car

8 sitting in the parking lot. They were both in the car

9 -- two guys were in the car.

10 I drove up, and he got in the car with me and

11 he asked he, he said, well what do you think?

12 I said I think it's all right. It's kind of

13 boring, but I think it's okay. It'll be all right.

14 He said -- he just told me one thing, he said,

15 well, if it works out good, he said, just remember your

16 friends, just remember who put you in this position.

17 And I told that I would.

18 Q. Can you describe -- this is Willow Springs.

19 Is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Can you describe for us the town of

22 Willow Springs, the population, size of the police

23 force.

24 A. When I went on the police department in the

25 sixties, Willow Springs was a town of about thirty-five

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1 hundred people. It's a rustic, scenic area right in the

2 middle of a forest preserve area. It's bounded by

3 Route 45, I-55, 294, Route 83, Willow Springs Road.

4 It's a very nice community esthetically.

5 At the time that I became a police officer

6 there, the entire structure of the town

7 politically-wise, business-wise, the town was completely

8 controlled by organized crime. From liquor licenses to

9 construction to everything that went on in that

10 community was controlled by different crews over my

11 period of time that I was in that town.

12 Q. From the sixties to the eighties?

13 A. Who ran for office later, in the later years,

14 who became mayor was not really too much in their hands,

15 but by that time they controlled all the businesses and

16 everything that was -- when I say "all the businesses,"

17 I don't mean every single business, but I mean every

18 single business that involved liquor licenses.

19 The town of thirty-five hundred people had

20 almost forty liquor licenses. We had one strip that was

21 complete -- I would say at least eight houses of

22 prostitution in a row. We had at least six bookmaking

23 operations. We had two full-blown casinos.

24 Most of the town's liquor licenses stopped at

25 two and four o'clock in the morning. Our town didn't

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1 get busy until two and four o'clock in the morning. And

2 that was seven nights a week.

3 Q. How big was the police force?

4 A. When I got there, it was, like, four full-time

5 men and I think we had about seven or eight part-time

6 men. A chief and three patrolmen and maybe seven or

7 eight part-time officers.

8 Q. How about toward the end of your term in the

9 early eighties?

10 A. When I left the department, we had, I believe,

11 twenty to twenty-five sworn officers and maybe ten or

12 fifteen or twenty part-time officers, working, sworn

13 officers.

14 Q. As a police officer in Willow Springs

15 throughout this period, the sixties to the early

16 eighties, did you take any specific action to assist the

17 Chicago outfit in its criminal activities in

18 Willow Springs?

19 A. Specific action. I would say that, you know,

20 on a weekly basis, sometimes on a daily basis, we were

21 involved in something that was going on with these

22 people, from disturbances in their establishments to

23 couriering money from one place to another. Yes, I

24 would say that I did facilitate their activities in that

25 period.

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1 Q. Did you ever perform license plate checks?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. Tell us about that.

4 A. License plate checks on -- okay. On occasion

5 we had -- we didn't have a computer in our community at

6 that time or what they call a raids machine, so we had

7 to go through either the county sheriff's police or

8 another town that was doing work for us,

9 Bridgeview, Illinois.

10 Occasionally the -- several members, different

11 members and different guys would say check this license

12 plate for me. I've seen this car following me, I've

13 seen this car by my house.

14 And I would check a license plate numbers for

15 them. Nine out of ten times they were Bureau of Chicago

16 bureau cars or FBI cars.

17 I used to do this quite often, and on several

18 occasions I received visits from special agents of the

19 FBI wanting to know, you know, what I was doing in

20 regard to this procedure. Because when you -- well

21 never mind. When you check -- when you check a bureau

22 car or an FBI car, you get a different response than you

23 do from a normal license plate check.

24 Q. It's on those instances where you would be

25 contacted by the FBI?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were some of the establishments that you've

3 named, or all the establishments that you've named, the

4 liquor areas, the prostitution, the gambling

5 establishments, were you aware at any time as to whether

6 they were paying street tax to the Chicago outfit?

7 A. In those particular cases, I would say that

8 every place in there was already in the fold. They

9 weren't outsiders doing business. These operations were

10 run by their people. You know, I could be specific

11 if --

12 Q. Why don't you give us a couple of specifics.

13 A. All right. One of the operations on

14 Keane Avenue, and there were three of them, one was

15 called the Miami Club, one was called a Bonanza Club and

16 one was called the Circle H Ranch. These were directly

17 run by guys who were in these different crews.

18 Kenny Hanson was one of the guys who ran an

19 operation. A guy by the name of Al Lorenz from the

20 Heights ran another one of the operations. And two

21 brother named Mike and Bob David, who were also out of

22 the Heights, out of the Chicago Heights, ran another

23 operation. And in concert, they would run their places

24 plus several other places that were already established

25 businesses in the community.

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1 Q. Was there any system devised relating to raids

2 of these establishments?

3 A. Well we didn't do much raiding from our

4 perspective in the community. But there was a system

5 devised back before we received our -- before we got own

6 radio room and our own radio operation that -- we had a

7 switch in the police station that would shut off the

8 street lights in the community.

9 When we were notified or asked to assist,

10 which on occasion they did, in a raid by the county

11 sheriff's police, the state police would come in, we

12 would hit the switch for the street lights and all the

13 establishments would shut down their operation.

14 At that time -- now you're talking about in

15 the mid sixties to the late sixties to the early

16 seventies Willow Springs still had three hundred slot

17 machines in it operating on a daily basis. One

18 establishment had a hundred fifty or two hundred of its

19 own machines in a fake wall that would disappear.

20 Q. Where was that establishment located?

21 A. On Archer Road, at the old American Legion

22 Center, which wasn't run by the American Legion but they

23 had their sign up for ten years. It was a, you know,

24 block building that was upstairs and downstairs and --

25 THE HEARING OFFICER: Was it a safe, a safe

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1 behind the wall or what?

2 THE WITNESS: No, it was a wall, a fake wall

3 that would move down in front of the slot machines if

4 there was any --

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, okay. I understand.

6 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) You were in this

7 establishment, you saw this wall?

8 A. I was in there a hundred times.

9 Q. Now you also mentioned delivering money for

10 these people, as you've said, the mob. Can you describe

11 that activity?

12 A. We're getting out of time frames. If you want

13 to keep it in the same time frame, we can talk about

14 what was going on with money at that time frame.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. In the late sixties and early seventies.

18 A. Okay. Our mayor and our chief of police at

19 the time had a system which was a trickle-down system

20 but didn't trickle down very far. It was just like a --

21 it trickled down to them and then that was the end of

22 the system, and we were doing -- the patrolmen and the

23 guys on the street were doing all the work.

24 So we finally went to them and said, listen,

25 you know, this is a little ridiculous. We're doing all

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 the work, we're getting in all these fights, we're

2 getting -- you know, you guys got to start trickling

3 down a little further.

4 Well they objected to that situation, and we

5 convinced them that it would probably be the best thing

6 for them to do.

7 So on a weekly basis we would -- the mayor at

8 that time owned a tavern in this same strip where all

9 these houses of prostitution were at.

10 Q. This is Mr. Rust?

11 A. John "Doc" Rust. They called him Doc. His

12 father was a doctor and he pretended he was a doctor.

13 He would get an envelope from certain people

14 delivered to him. Then when we objected, the envelope

15 started coming to us, and then we would deliver it to

16 him just so we could be there at the same time the

17 envelope was opened and that sort of thing.

18 So we would meet -- one of the members would

19 come out of the Heights or wherever they were at the

20 time, whoever was operating in our town, and they would

21 bring a package. We would meet them and we would go to

22 the tavern, and it would be cut up right there in the

23 tavern and everybody would get a piece of the action.

24 Q. Did you continue receiving payoffs through the

25 late seventies and early eighties.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. How did it work then?

3 A. Well, you know, as time went on, we changed a

4 lot of things and different crews came in and different

5 people came in. You had to be a lot more careful about

6 how you were doing things.

7 There would one person, myself, who would met

8 with these people, and then whatever splitting up would

9 be done, I would do it. As the boss then, after 1973, I

10 took care of that. I took care of that end. I would

11 meet these people.

12 Q. When you say "as the boss," you mean the boss

13 of the --

14 A. The police department.

15 Q. -- police department.

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Were you aware that the outfit operated in

18 Willow Springs and elsewhere in Chicago during the

19 entire period you were on the police force?

20 A. Absolutely.

21 Q. Did you ever investigate this organized

22 criminal activity in order to clean it up?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. That would have cost myself money. Why would

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 I want to clean it up at that time. I was no -- I had

2 no ambition to do that.

3 Q. Let me hand you what we've marked as GEB

4 Attorney's Exhibit 50, and maybe Mr. Vaira can take a

5 look over your should at this.

6 First of all, can you identify this document

7 and what it is?

8 A. It's a memorandum from my prosecutor

9 Thomas Scorza, U. S. Attorney's Office, dated

10 March 5, 1987.

11 Q. When you say your prosecutor, what do you mean?

12 A. The U. S. Attorney that prosecuted me in all

13 three of my cases.

14 Q. Where did you get this memorandum from?

15 A. I got it in discovery in our 1987 racketeering

16 case.

17 Q. How did I receive it?

18 A. I believe I gave it to you.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's that called,

20 Mr. Bostwick? What's that number?

21 MR. BOSTWICK: It's GEB Attorney's Exhibit

22 Number 50. And I'd move it for admission at this point.


24 (GEB Attorney's Exhibit Number 50 admitted

25 into evidence)

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 MR. CARMELL: Well can I just ask what it's

2 being admitted for?

3 MR. BOSTWICK: Well if you'd rather I move for

4 admission after we go over it, I can do that.

5 MR. CARMELL: No, that's not my point. I

6 definitely can't read it. It's a lot material. Is it

7 dealing with matters he's talking about now in his

8 position as Officer, later Chief of Willow Springs, in

9 that area?

10 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes. It relates to

11 confirmation of the type of testimony he just provided.

12 MR. CARMELL: For that purpose, I don't have

13 an objection to this document coming in.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.

15 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Can you describe what this

16 memorandum is before we go to specifics. What's

17 detailed in this memorandum?

18 A. This is a memorandum I believe from an

19 undercover agent of the FBI, Agent Larry Damron, who I

20 knew as Larry White -- or Wright, Larry Wright.

21 Q. What was this undercover operation, what did

22 it involve?

23 A. This was really an undercover sting operation

24 where the FBI had put an undercover agent in with an

25 operation -- an organized crime operation run by

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Michael Spilotro and Victor Spilotro.

2 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Just to clarify,

3 Mr. Hearing Officer.


5 MR. CARMELL: This is a document which is from

6 an Assistant United States Attorney concerning notes of

7 an interview with a Special Agent Larry Damron, and this

8 is Larry -- involves Larry Damron's report of matters.

9 It does not involve anything that the witness has given.

10 Is that a fair statement, Mr. Bostwick?

11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand. I don't

12 understand.

13 MR. CARMELL: Well I'm just trying to get a --

14 this is not a statement of Mr. Corbitt's.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.

16 MR. CARMELL: It's not a statement of

17 Mr. Corbitt's, and my quick perusal of it, there is not

18 a statement in that it concerns -- well I shouldn't say

19 concerns. That's all I want to be clear, that this

20 isn't Mr. Corbitt having told the FBI agent or

21 Mr. Scorza anything.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: Well except that there are

23 taped conversations that he's recorded on with the FBI

24 agent.

25 MR. CARMELL: According to Mr. Corbitt.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 MR. BOSTWICK: According to this report.

2 MR. CARMELL: That's all I wanted clear up.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: There's something in

4 here about Mike Corbitt talking to the agent, and this

5 is why he got this during the trial. It's some sort of

6 a 302.

7 MR. CARMELL: Right. I understand. But it's

8 not Mr. Corbitt's 302.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: No, no, no. It looks to

10 me like there's -- there's something in here.

11 MR. CARMELL: Right.

12 THE HEARING: They do talk about Corbitt.

13 Willow Springs is right down the road from

14 Lyons. Am I right?

15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, very close.


17 THE WITNESS: Very close.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.

19 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Is it fair to say that you

20 were a target or a subject of this FBI undercover

21 operation?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Were you taped, according to this

24 memorandum --

25 A. No.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. -- in some of your phone -- in some of your

2 conversations?

3 A. No. No, I -- I believe they taped Michael and

4 Victor's conversations. I was never taped. He never

5 wore a wire on me.

6 Q. Michael and Victor are who?

7 A. Spilotro.

8 Q. What is going on here? What are they trying

9 to set up and how are you involved?

10 A. Okay. What I believe the FBI was attempting

11 to do was to infiltrate the operation that was going on

12 in Willow Springs, my operation, because I was under

13 investigation at the time.

14 They had two members of organized crime,

15 Michael and Victor --

16 Q. Spilotro --

17 A. -- Spilotro, who this guy Larry Wright Damron

18 was a partner in a business that factored credit card

19 invoices. These credit invoices were coming from strip

20 joints, houses of prostitutions, juice loan operations,

21 and it was -- they were doing this with a credit card.

22 Okay.

23 Spilotro told this guy Larry Damron Wright

24 that they thought they could get to me to open up an

25 off-track messenger service in Willow Springs, i. e. to

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 operate really as a bookmaking operation, no off-track.

2 So they sent this guy to see me and had a

3 meeting with me, and which I did have the meeting,

4 and --

5 Q. Is this the meeting on May 27, 1982.

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Referred to at the bottom of Page 2?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Why don't you take us through that paragraph,

10 the paragraph that begins on the bottom of Page 2 and

11 ends a little above the middle of the page and --

12 A. Do you want me to read it?

13 Q. You can reads parts of it and paraphrase

14 others and tell us what happens in this meeting, what it

15 illustrates.

16 A. It says, "On May 27, 1982, Marren, who is

17 "Joe Marren, one of the people who worked for

18 "Spilotro, took Damron to meet Corbitt at the

19 "Willow Springs Police Station. Corbitt was not at

20 "the station when Damron and Marren first arrived

21 "there, but Corbitt then drove up to the station

22 "in his police car. Marren went up to the police

23 "car and spoke to Corbitt and then got in the back

24 "seat. Marren then called Damron over and

25 "introduced him as Larry. Damron then had a

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 "conversation with Michael Corbitt in which it was

2 "clear that Marren had already told Corbitt about

3 "the proposed plan to open a messenger service in

4 "Willow Springs. Before the meeting Marren had

5 "also told Damron that Corbitt had been making

6 "money on the side fixing DWIs and referring cases

7 "to his favorite lawyer. In any event, in the

8 "May 27, 1982, conversation Damron told Corbitt of

9 "the success of the Palatine operation and the

10 "monthly payments that operation generated for

11 "public officials there. Corbitt responded that

12 "the monthly payment offer was fine with him, and

13 "in the conversation made plain that his proposed

14 "messenger service was simply a front for an

15 "illegal bookmaking activity. Corbitt told

16 "Damron that Corbitt was satisfied with Damron's

17 "proposed payoff arrangement and Corbitt even

18 "suggested two locations that might be suitable for

19 "a Willow Springs messenger service. Corbitt also

20 "specifically inquired whether Damron had obtained

21 "the okay of the county, meaning the corrupt county

22 "sheriff's police. Corbitt also told Damron that

23 "Corbitt would need to have advanced approval from

24 "the Bastone brothers, who were street level bosses

25 "for the Chicago Mafia. Chicago insisted that one

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 "of these" --

2 Q. I'm sorry. That's not Chicago. It's Corbitt.

3 Right?

4 A. Where?

5 Q. You said Chicago insisted. It's Corbitt

6 insisted. Right?

7 A. Right. "Corbitt insisted that one of these OC

8 "guys would have to call Corbitt directly so that

9 "Corbitt would know that Damron had the mob's okay

10 "to operate as bookmaking service out of

11 "Willow Springs. Following their conversation

12 "with Corbitt, Marren and Damron actually drove

13 "around and visited specific sites for the

14 "messenger service operation, including two

15 "addresses Corbitt suggested."

16 Q. Did this occur?

17 A. Yes, it did.

18 Q. Is this a fairly accurate depiction of how it

19 is that you would interact with people who were trying

20 to set up payoffs for illegal bookmaking operations in

21 Willow Springs?

22 A. The only difference is, is that usually when

23 they come to you, they already have everybody's

24 approval. Nobody comes to you out of the dark, out of

25 the -- and says, you know, we want to do this and do

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 that.

2 Usually when somebody comes -- usually when

3 they came to me, I already had advance knowledge they

4 were coming and knew all about what they were going to

5 do.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER. Let me inquire. This

7 messenger service, am I correct, this is some sort of

8 phenomenon that started in Illinois --

9 THE WITNESS: Correct.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: -- where they would have

11 a -- it would really be off-track betting, and

12 supposedly the messenger service would simply carry your

13 bet from wherever it is to the track.

14 THE WITNESS: But that never occurred.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: That never occurred.

16 Right. And in fact, there was an original called

17 Pegasus.

18 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: And the ruse was that,

20 yeah, you were suppose to be sending messengers, but you

21 were really --

22 THE WITNESS: It was laid off. They were

23 laying off the bets.

24 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) The Bastone brothers are

25 mentioned in this. Who are the Bastone brothers?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. The brothers that I was referring to in this

2 conversation were Carmen and Sal Bastone. Salvatore and

3 Carmen Bastone, two guys that -- one guy in particular I

4 had been involved with for over twenty years at the time

5 and the other guy I'd known for ten or fifteen years,

6 Carmen. Sal I had been involved with for over twenty

7 years.

8 Q. Now why is it that you would require advance

9 approval from the them specifically as opposed to just

10 somebody's word?

11 A. At that particular time, this was their area.

12 The Spilotros had nothing whatsoever to do in that area.

13 Everything they wanted to do, or any other crew, had to

14 go through them. This was their turf, territory,

15 whatever you want to call it.

16 Q. On the payoffs, if you had received those and

17 when you received them in other instances, who would the

18 money go to?

19 A. What do you mean who would it go to?

20 Q. Well if you're going to get the payoff, where

21 does that money go?

22 A. It went to me.

23 Q. Anybody else?

24 A. Well whoever I -- whoever I deemed worthy,

25 yes. But mostly it went to me.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Did the mob get a cut of these operations?

2 A. Absolutely. That operation there absolutely

3 would have paid a street tax to whoever's area that was

4 in.

5 Q. Did other outfit bosses and crews other than

6 the Bastone brothers work in the Willow Springs area

7 over the time --

8 A. Oh, sure.

9 Q. -- in the late sixties to the early eighties?

10 A. Sure they did.

11 Q. Even into the mid to late eighties?

12 A. Into the mid to late eighties. Maybe today,

13 who knows.

14 Q. But as far as your personal knowledge, until

15 '87 when you went to jail.

16 A. Right. Correct.

17 Q. Describe the nature of your relationship with

18 Sal Bastone during the seventies and eighties.

19 A. Sal Bastone and I would see each other on a --

20 sometime on a daily basis in the late -- in the late

21 eighties on a daily basis. I was at his home; he as at

22 my home. We were -- went through all our family

23 tragedies, deaths, marriages, christenings. We were

24 very close.

25 Q. Did you have any specific relationship with

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 his children or vice versa?

2 A. His children were like my children. They were

3 in my house, they were on my boats, they were at my

4 vacation home, they were -- we were, you know, like best

5 friends.

6 Q. I'm going to show you after I show it to

7 Mr. Carmell here and then Mr. Vaira a couple of

8 photographs. I'll ask you to identify those.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay those are marked --

10 MR. BOSTWICK: Actually, these have not been

11 entered yet. These are new.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: These are 164A, 164B.

13 Okay. Show them to Mr. Corbitt.

14 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Mr. Corbitt, can you tell

15 me what 164A is? Is that the one you're looking at?

16 A. I64A is a picture of myself and Sal Bastone in

17 his condominium building in Hollywood, Florida, sometime

18 in the mid seventies -- early seventies.

19 164B is Salvatore Bastone, my youngest son

20 Joey and my sister-in-law.

21 Q. Where did I get these photos?

22 A. From me.

23 MR. CARMELL: Can we fix the approximate date

24 of B?

25 THE WITNESS: B would have been -- he's 14

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 now. So early eighties.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd move admission of 164A and

3 164B.


5 (GEB Attorney's Exhibits Number 164A and 164B

6 admitted into evidence)

7 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Who were some of your other

8 close contacts with the Chicago outfit? You've said

9 Mr. Giancanna and Mr. Bastone. Who were some of the

10 others?

11 A. Contacts?

12 Q. Who were your closest contacts or associates?

13 A. Over the years, you know, I was in contact

14 with everybody who was anybody. I mean, I was -- I

15 captioned boats that Joey Aiuppa was on,

16 Petes Battaglia, Jackie Cerone. I brought packages to

17 his homes.

18 Q. Whose homes?

19 A. Joey Aiuppa. I traveled with him to --

20 Q. When you say "packages," let me stop you right

21 there. First of all, who is Joey Aiuppa?

22 A. Joey Aiuppa is a recently deceased head of

23 organized crime in Chicago and was for maybe forty

24 years.

25 Q. When you say you brought packages to his home,

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 what type of packages and for what purpose?

2 A. I -- I dropped off -- I'll start with

3 cigarettes. He was a very heavy smoker and he smoked

4 English Oval cigarettes.

5 One of the other businesses that I was

6 involved with, i. e., organized crime, was Rent-All

7 Vending, which was owned and controlled by a Jewish

8 fellow named Hy Larner, and they supplied him with all

9 of his cigarettes. So once every couple of months we

10 would take a case of cigarettes to whatever home he was

11 at in the Chicago area.

12 And he would only allow specific people to

13 bring them. And I would come, I would go with Sal, I

14 would go by myself and we would --

15 Q. Sal Bastone?

16 A. Sal Bastone.

17 I would bring packages that I had no knowledge

18 what was inside of them from jewelers in Chicago. One

19 in particular, Rocket Jewelers, downtown Chicago, every

20 holiday season I would go down and pick up a big package

21 from the jewelers and bring it there.

22 I would bring packages that I believe

23 contained money to his different homes, River Forest,

24 Barrington.

25 Q. Did you do this in your police car?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. In unmarked police cars and in private cars.

2 Q. How about Joe Testa; who is he?

3 A. Joe is a friend of -- was a friend of mine for

4 thirty-some years. That's who he was.

5 Q. Associated with the Chicago outfit mainly?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. How so?

8 A. He owned a savings and loan, he owned a lot of

9 property. He was a real estate developer. Some of

10 these people invested in his projects. He was for a

11 great long time very well liked.

12 Q. Through the experiences you've described and

13 the relationships with these individuals, Sal Bastone,

14 Sam Giancanna, Joe Testa and others, did you learn about

15 the leadership structure of organized crime in Chicago?

16 A. What I would assume, I mean, my own opinion as

17 to what it was, yes.

18 Q. Was your understanding of the leadership

19 structure important to you in your position helping out

20 the outfit as the Willow Springs Police Chief?

21 A. Well it wasn't really important to me because

22 I was like a protected guy. I had a guy -- I had a

23 Chinaman that would not let anybody come near me for

24 frivolous garbage, and I had a guy who kept people away

25 from me.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Who is that?

2 A. Sam Giancanna.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: You used the word

4 "Chinaman". That I believe is used in a --


6 MR. BOSTWICK: Like a rabbi or --

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Somebody who's either

8 your rabbi or your godfather. In Chicago it's often

9 referred to as a Chinaman.

10 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) A protector.

11 A. Right. Right.

12 Q. Now at a certain point in time the

13 Inspector General's Office from LIUNA contacted you and

14 gave you a list of names of individuals who had worked

15 as officers or delegates on the Chicago District

16 Counsel. Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Do you recall what your first instinct on that

19 list was?

20 A. I remember -- and this was early on, I think

21 the first time I met you. I told you there was a

22 picture out and I had seen it several times in the last

23 couple of years. The photo was referred to as the last

24 supper. And I said that's a picture you ought to get.

25 There's a -- you know, you want to talk about

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 organized labor and the unions in Chicago, there's a

2 picture that you should get. And I gave you, I think --

3 as a matter of fact, I gave you a picture that was a

4 black-and-white picture of that situation.

5 Q. Let me give you what has already been entered

6 in our hearing as Exhibit 6A. I'm going to show you

7 this picture. Can identify that for me?

8 A. Yes, I can.

9 Q. What is that?

10 A. That's a colored picture of the

11 black-and-white picture that I gave to you.

12 Q. Who is the individual -- I've only got the one

13 photograph down here because we're traveling. We better

14 keep that off the telephone.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. That may be a

16 microphone right there.

17 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Who is the individual in

18 Exhibit A who is marked as Number 7?

19 A. Number 7 is Al Pilotto.

20 Q. Had you ever heard at any time that he was a

21 union official for the Laborers' Union in the Chicago

22 area?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. During what period of time had you heard that?

25 A. For a long period of time that I was on the

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 street. I mean, I can't give you an exact breakdown.

2 But, you know, I know Al Pilotto personally so I knew he

3 that he was a union rep.

4 Q. In your experience, what did Al Pilotto do for

5 a living?

6 A. In my experience?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. He was a -- the boss of the Chicago Heights

9 crew. That's what he did for a living, as far as I

10 knew, other than his union affiliate.

11 Q. Over what period of time was he a boss of the

12 Chicago Heights crew?

13 A. When I first came to Willow Springs, he was an

14 underboss to a guy by the name Frankie LaPorte.

15 Q. Frankie LaPorte?

16 A. Frankie LaPorte.

17 Q. How do you spell that last name?

18 A. L-A-P-O-R-T-E, I believe. I'm not sure.

19 Okay.

20 He was an underboss, and at the time I came to

21 Willow Springs he was running our community's

22 involvement in organized crime with several other

23 people. But he was the boss. Underboss, but the boss

24 out there. Street boss.

25 Q. This is Al Pilotto?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. That's Al Pilotto.

2 Q. When did you first meet Al Pilotto, do you

3 remember?

4 A. Maybe six or eight months after I was on the

5 job. Previous to that, we dealt with other people who

6 were aligned with him and with him. I heard his name

7 and I met him maybe six months after I was on the job.

8 Q. Can you describe that situation?

9 A. Yeah, I can. We were at the time -- the strip

10 that they controlled was called Keane Avenue. It ran

11 from 87th to 81st and Keane. And again, there were five

12 or six houses of prostitution, a couple of disco joints,

13 a couple of bookmaking operations and the mayor's tavern

14 were all on that strip. And it was famous for fights

15 and disturbances, as these places are.

16 And on one occasion our cars, along with

17 mutual aid from other communities, responded to a very

18 serious disturbance. As we were responding, some

19 individuals opened up on the squad cars with shotguns

20 from a cemetery that was directly across the street.

21 And nobody was injured, but some severe damage was done

22 to one of our squad cars.

23 And the next day, you know, the chief took the

24 car to the mayor and he told him, hey, listen, look what

25 they're doing to our squad cars.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to this

2 unless he was there when they had the conversation.

3 THE WITNESS: Which conversation?

4 MR. CARMELL: The chief going to the mayor.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well let's put it this

6 way: He's about to describe a conversation. Right?

7 And he knows about it somehow. Will you tell us how you

8 know about this conversation. You were on the police

9 force at that time.

10 THE WITNESS: Right. Right. I was brought

11 into the circumstances later in the day after the mayor

12 and the chief had this conversation. I was told by the

13 chief --

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may tell us that.

15 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What did the chief tell

16 you?

17 A. The chief told me that he had went up to the

18 mayor and showed him the squad car, and there was some

19 damage to the windows and the side of the car and

20 everything.

21 And the mayor had told him to jack the price

22 up on it, find out what it's going to cost, jack it up,

23 get hold of Al Pilotto and make them pay for the damage.

24 So, in fact, that's what what we did.

25 The damage on the car was about a thousand

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 dollars. We took it to a dealer and it was about a

2 thousand dollars. The chief added two thousand to it

3 and called Pilotto and asked him to come out to the --

4 to bring the money.

5 Q. Were you involved in that?

6 A. I was there. I was at the mayor's tavern when

7 Al Pilotto arrived.

8 Q. What happened then?

9 A. Well Al Pilotto arrived at the tavern, and

10 they went inside and they were discussing --

11 Q. Who is "they"?

12 A. The mayor, Doc Rust, and I was outside. And a

13 large disturbance broke out in the tavern so I went in

14 the tavern. Al Pilotto was with a couple of guys who

15 also went into the tavern.

16 So I went into the tavern, and the -- an

17 argument broke out because Al Pilotto said the mayor was

18 trying to rip him off and they were back and forth with

19 the conversation.

20 Anyway, the substance was, is that the price

21 was cut in half to like fifteen hundred dollars. He

22 gave the mayor the money, and the mayor put the money in

23 his pocket and turned the thing into the insurance and

24 they fixed the car.

25 But after that occasion, I met with Al Pilotto

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 several other times over a period of years until a

2 different crew came in and took over that area.

3 Q. During what period of time was Al Pilotto

4 involved in organized criminal activity in

5 Willow Springs?

6 A. From the mid -- I would say from the mid

7 sixties to the early seventies.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: We've been at it a

9 little bit over an hour. How's the reporter doing?

10 THE REPORTER: I'm fine.

11 THE WITNESS: I want to take a break.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's take a ten-minute

13 break here.

14 (Recess from 10:30 to 10:45 a. m.)

15 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Mr. Corbitt, we were

16 talking about Al Pilotto and the time period where

17 Mr. Pilotto was involved in organized criminal activity

18 in Willow Springs. Did you ever receive payoffs from

19 Al Pilotto personally?

20 A. Absolutely.

21 Q. Approximately, what time frame and how often?

22 A. The time frame would have been late '65, also

23 in 1968 and 1969.

24 Q. How did this work? Can you describe the

25 situation?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. We would have a set-up meeting place.

2 Sometimes it would be a restaurant, sometimes it would

3 be at the mayor's tavern, sometimes it would be on the

4 highway. I'd get a call. I'd call them back and say

5 meet me here, meet me there. I'd meet him and I'd go

6 in, and he'd give me an envelope.

7 Q. The envelope would contain money?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. What would it be for? Who would it be for?

10 A. It would be for me, and there'd be a separate

11 envelope -- before I became chief, there was a separate

12 envelope for the chief and there was a separate envelope

13 for the mayor.

14 Q. What did you understand the payment was for?

15 A. For protecting their operations that they had

16 going in Willow Springs.

17 Q. When Al Pilotto left Willow Springs, did you

18 understand that he continued in a leadership position in

19 the outfit?

20 A. Absolutely.

21 Q. How did you understand that?

22 A. Well just through my association with other

23 people that were in that -- that were out in the

24 Willow Springs and other people that I associated with.

25 Frankie LaPorte died, and when that occurred Al Pilotto

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 took over as the boss of the Heights, the

2 Chicago Heights, Blue Island and the southern suburbs.

3 Q. Throughout what period of time did he hold

4 that position?

5 A. I think that would have been during the late

6 sixties, early seventies, and then I believe he went to

7 prison sometime after that.

8 Q. So it's your understanding that until he went

9 to prison, he held a position in organized crime?

10 A. Absolutely.

11 Q. Let me refer you back to this GEB Attorney

12 Exhibit 6A. Who is Number 8 on that photograph?

13 A. Number 8 is Vincent Solano.

14 Q. Did you ever hear that he was a union official

15 of the Laborers' Union in the Chicago area?

16 A. I knew he was a Teamster official. I didn't

17 know with what union.

18 Q. You didn't know with what union?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In your experience, what did Vince Solano --

21 A. What did he do for a living?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I have no idea other than a union official or

24 whatever.

25 Q. What did he do to make money as you understood

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 it?

2 A. He was the boss of the north-side street crew.

3 Q. During what period of time?

4 A. I would say, you know, all during the

5 seventies up until the early eighties and maybe even

6 beyond that. I'm not sure after the mid eighties where

7 he was at.

8 Q. Can you describe the general nature of your

9 interaction with Vince Solano? Did you have

10 interactions with him?

11 A. I had interactions with Vince Solano on -- one

12 of the assignments or jobs that I had later on in the

13 seventies and eighties was, I was a courier, I was a

14 money courier for a far north-side crew which delivered

15 money to all the bosses of the different crews.

16 I would go to O'Hara Field, meet somebody that

17 would come into town, take them in my car and spend the

18 entire night and sometime the following morning dropping

19 off packages of what I knew was cash money to different

20 individuals in Chicago.

21 Q. What period of time is this?

22 A. That would have been late sixties, all through

23 the seventies, and until I came to prison.

24 Q. In 1987.

25 A. Right.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Okay.

2 A. Vince Solano was one of my drop-off points.

3 And I would meet him at several locations downtown,

4 that's how I was able to finally meet with him

5 personally one-on-one. I used to meet with somebody

6 else and drop his off with somebody else.

7 Q. Who were those people, just for clarification?

8 A. I used to meet with Pat Marcy at

9 Counselor's Row, a restaurant in Chicago, and other

10 locations and drop off garbage bags full of money.

11 Q. Literally, a garbage bag?

12 A. Garbage bags.

13 Q. Like a Hefty trash bag you get from a store?

14 A. Hefty -- maybe a -- I would say 30-gallon

15 garbage bags and -- I mean, they wouldn't be heaped to

16 the top, but that's how they collected the money, in

17 garbage bags. On occasion I knew how much was in the

18 bags. I mean, there was hundreds of thousands of

19 dollars in the bags.

20 Q. Hundreds of thousands?

21 A. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bags.

22 Q. How --

23 A. But not each guy got a hundred thousand

24 dollars. It was taken to a central counting area where

25 they counted it all out, separated it, and then it was

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 marked who got what, where it went, and it was then

2 delivered.

3 Q. Were you involved in the counting?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How do you know that this counting took place?

6 A. I was there when it was counted.

7 Q. You were the person that dropped them off?

8 A. I was one of the persons who dropped it off to

9 specific people.

10 Q. Tell me how it was that you came to actually

11 meet face-to-face with Vince Solano.

12 A. One one occasion where I went to meet

13 Pat Marcy to drop off Vince Solano's and several other

14 people's, Pat Marcy told me that Vince did not want him

15 taking his money anymore, that he wanted it delivered

16 direct.

17 So I said, whatever, but, you know, you're

18 going to tell me where and this and that.

19 I had known Vince Solano pervious to this on a

20 somewhat social basis from seeing him around the

21 Rush Street area, seeing him around the north side,

22 seeing him at wakes and different functions that I was

23 introduced to him. So he knew who I was; I knew who he

24 was.

25 So after that period of time, I would meet him

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 personally and drop off his money.

2 Q. Where would you meet him, what types of

3 places?

4 A. I would meet him restaurants, I met him in

5 restaurants on Rush Street, I met him parking garages, I

6 met in apartment complexes, all over the city.

7 Q. How would you decide where to meet him?

8 A. We would have a phone call and he'd tell me

9 where to meet him. I had a beeper and a portable phone,

10 and he'd contact me or I'd contact him and I'd meet him.

11 Q. Who were some of Vince Solano's closest

12 associates in the outfit that you were aware of? I'm

13 not using the term associates now as mob associates.

14 Who were the people he was closest to within the

15 organization of the Chicago outfit?

16 A. Well, you know, really I don't know specific.

17 There's some people that I know who they were

18 specifically around, but I wasn't around him that much

19 and his different crews to know who the guys were that

20 were around him. I knew some of the people who hung

21 around him, I knew some of the people that were with

22 him. But, you know, as far as crew members, I don't --

23 you know, right off the top of my head, I can't say who

24 he was -- you know, I may think of it as we go along,

25 but I can't think of it right now.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. How about the same question for Al Pilotto.

2 A. Al Pilotto, because I was involved with him

3 for so long, I know quite a few of the guys that were

4 around him. Al Tocco, Bonnets, Mike and Bob David,

5 Frankie LaPorte, Al Lorenz, Wayne Bock, Joey Petite,

6 Nick Guzzino, Richard Guzzino. That's enough.


8 THE WITNESS: Larry Petite.


10 THE WITNESS: Joe and Larry both.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: The only reason I say

12 that, I always hear them mentioned together,

13 Joe and Larry Petite.

14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Well they usually always

15 are together.

16 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Why don't you go through

17 the rest of those individuals and simply tell me who

18 they are and the nature -- briefly what the nature of

19 your association, if any, was with these individuals

20 starting with Number 1 on Exhibit 6A.

21 A. Number 1 is Tony Accardo, and I've had, like I

22 said, many, many different meetings and associations

23 with him.

24 Q. What types of places would you see him?

25 A. I captained a boat that he fished on in

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Florida. I was at his home that he used in

2 Palm Desert, California, where he golfed. I was at

3 wakes with him, I was at weddings with him.

4 He knew me on a personal basis as far as my

5 name. I never associated -- I mean, when I say he was

6 on my boat, he was on my boat with four or five people

7 or on a boat that I captained. They played cards and

8 fished. I really was not privy to a lot of their

9 conversations on the boat.

10 But I knew the man very well. I was at his

11 home in River Forest, I was at his home on Ashland, I

12 was at his home in Barrington.

13 Q. What is your understanding of his position in

14 the Chicago outfit, if any?

15 A. You know, media and terminology of my own, he

16 was the boss of bosses. He was the boss.

17 Q. How about Number 2?

18 Well let me ask one more questions about

19 Tony Accardo. Over what period of time did you

20 understand that he held a leadership position in the

21 Chicago outfit?

22 A. Did I understand?

23 Q. Right.

24 A. Maybe forty years.

25 Q. Okay.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Even though -- even when he stepped back, he

2 never really stepped back. When other people were up

3 front, he was still the boss. I mean, my opinion, just

4 from interaction and things that I saw happen myself

5 personally, he was the boss.

6 Q. How about Number 2?

7 A. Number 2 is Joe Amato, who I never really had

8 a lot of interaction at all with him. I met him on

9 several occasions. He was a DuPage County guy and I

10 never really had a lot of action with him in any period

11 of time.

12 Q. What was your understanding of any position he

13 had?

14 A. He was a boss. He was an underboss.

15 Q. Of the Chicago outfit?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How about Number 3?

18 A. Cesar Divarco. Cesar I know as a boss of a

19 little lower magnitude. He had a powerful crew around

20 him and that's why he was boss. He was north side also,

21 a north-side guy.

22 Q. During what period of time?

23 A. Fifties, sixties and seventies.

24 Q. Can you describe the nature of your

25 interactions with him?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. The same as Amato, I didn't have a lot of

2 interaction with him. I knew him to meet him and to see

3 him and I knew, again, what his position was from other

4 things that I saw.

5 Q. Did you ever drop off money or pay money to

6 him?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. How about Number 4?

9 A. Number 4 was my good friend for fifteen years,

10 Jimmy Torello, Jimmy "Turk" Torello.

11 Q. Turk?

12 A. Turk.

13 Q. That's a nickname?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You said he was your good friend. What did

16 you understand his position to be in the Chicago outfit,

17 if any?

18 A. He was a boss. But when I knew him, he was

19 just a guy out working the field. He was partnered up

20 with a guy named Joe Ferriola, Joe Negal. And they had

21 different vending routes and different things that they

22 took care.

23 At one time early on in Willow Spring, that

24 was -- part of the town was in his location, part of it

25 was in the Heights location.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. When you say "his location," you mean

2 Turk Torrello's?

3 A. Turk's domain or Turk's territory came from

4 Route 83, which is not in Willow Springs, to

5 Willow Springs Road. They had maybe one or two houses

6 of prostitution and a couple of vending stops, and that

7 was Turk's area.

8 And him and I became very friendly, and I was

9 around him socially and with him for years, ten years.

10 Q. How often would you see him in that ten-year

11 period?

12 A. Once a month, maybe twice a month. We'd have

13 dinner. He'd call me. I'd meet him in Chinatown, I'd

14 meet him in Oak Brook. A very funny guy, but a very

15 serious guy, too.

16 Q. What type of criminal activity were you aware

17 that he was in? You mentioned the house of

18 prostitution.

19 A. In my opinion, he was involved -- in my

20 opinion, he was involved in a lot things just from our

21 conversation. He was involved in heavy juice loan

22 activity. They were making a lot of loans. They were

23 involved in a lot of cartage thefts, a lot of big

24 trucking thefts that were going on. They were receiving

25 street taxes and the merchandise.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 And also, he had a crew of active take-down

2 robberies guys that were doing some big scores around --

3 around, not just in Chicago, but all over the country.

4 Guys that I knew just by meeting them through him.

5 Q. Can you tell us a few of the names of these

6 individuals?

7 A. Steve Tomaras was one of them, Jimmy Maraglia

8 was another one, Bobby McCarthy was another one. Those

9 were all take-down guys. Those were all robbery guys.

10 Q. You mentioned a ten-year period of time that

11 you were close with Mr. Torello. What is this ten-year

12 time frame, or approximately?

13 A. I would say the mid -- I would say the mid

14 sixties. No. Make it the late sixties to the late

15 seventies.

16 Q. How about Number 5; who's that on Exhibit 6A?

17 A. Number is Joey Lombardo.

18 Q. Did you know him or have any relationship with

19 him?

20 A. I knew him; he knew him. I didn't have a lot

21 of relationship with him. He didn't really like me, and

22 that was not a good position to be in, when he didn't

23 like you. He didn't really like me and he voiced this

24 to other people.

25 I was a cop. He didn't want no cops around.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 He didn't want no cops knowing anybody's business. As a

2 matter of fact, he even attempted to dissuade other

3 people who were around me later on not to have anything

4 to do with me. It didn't work. I knew his brother. I

5 was in his --

6 Q. Who is his brother?

7 A. His brother is Rocko Lombardo. I knew his

8 son.

9 Q. Who's his son.

10 A. I think his son is named

11 Joey Lombardo, Junior. He's a Junior.

12 Q. In what capacity did you know his son?

13 A. I know him from meeting him at different

14 places when he was growing up. I think he's about ten

15 -- maybe ten or eleven, twelve years younger than me, I

16 think. I'm fifty-three. I think he's in his early

17 forties.

18 I used to go to golf at teh same golf course

19 that he was at, and I believe myself partially that he

20 owned several of these golf courses and --

21 Q. Now you're talking about Joe Lumbardo, Senior?

22 A. Joe Lombardo, Senior. Excuse me.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. But, you know, I was around the guy for twenty

25 years at a distance.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Did you understand from conversations with

2 these other individuals or from your interactions with

3 him whether or not he was involved in the Chicago outfit

4 in any way?

5 A. Absolutely was. There's no doubt in my mind.

6 Q. What type of position did he hold?

7 A. Well he was an enforcer. In my estimation, I

8 believe that he filled up a cemetery or two. I believe

9 that had things gone in a different direction for him,

10 he probably would have ended up being the boss, the

11 ultimate boss of Chicago.

12 I think now, my opinion now is, he's still

13 running the show in some fashion.

14 Q. Let me ask you another question about

15 Joe Lombardo, Junior, and your relationship with him.

16 There's a large time gap and age gap. Did you have any

17 specific relationships in dealing with Joe Lombardo,

18 Junior, as they related organized crime?

19 A. No. No, I did not.

20 Q. How about Number 6?

21 A. Number 6 is Jack Cerone.

22 Q. And can you tell us about Jack Cerone?

23 A. I knew Jack Cerone probably as long as I knew

24 Sam Giancanna. Jack Cerone used to come into my gas

25 station. At the time that I knew him, he was dating a

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 girl from the Summit area. He would bring his car

2 there, she would pick him up. He would leave the car

3 there. He would always say, you know, change the oil

4 and wash the car.

5 We said we just washed it yesterday.

6 He said wash it again.

7 He'd keep it for three or four days at my gas

8 station and be gone. When he'd come back, he'd pay

9 whatever the tab was and go on.

10 And then I ended up knowing him through other

11 associations with other people later on on the police

12 department and later on in other things that were going

13 on around me.

14 Q. Did you have any personal dealings that

15 related to organized criminal activity with Mr. Cerone?

16 A. I would say yes, pretty much -- are we going

17 to get into some other areas now or -- I mean, do you

18 want me to expound on that?

19 Q. Sure why don't you expound on that.

20 A. Okay. When that crew in that case in

21 Kansas City, the one that he was convicted on, I had

22 moved into a position with these guys, at least a

23 majority of them, of a whole lot of trust. At that

24 particular time I was couriering a lot of money into

25 Chicago from out west.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Corbitt, just

2 as a clarification.


4 THE HEARING: You say when he was convicted.

5 I believe that you're referring to the conviction,

6 Jack Cerone and maybe Aiuppa and others out of

7 Kansas City that had to do with skimming out of a

8 Las Vegas hotel. Is that right?

9 THE WITNESS: Correct.


11 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Do you know approximately

12 the time frame of this?

13 A. The trial?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I know exactly when it was.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. The trial was in -- it was in 1985. They were

18 convicted and sentenced in early 1986 in -- well they

19 were convicted. They weren't sentenced until later in

20 '86.

21 They were convicted two weeks before the

22 Super Bowl in 1986. And the reason I know this is

23 because I had purchased eleven Super Bowl tickets for

24 these gentlemen to go to the Super Bowl only they

25 weren't able to make it.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Who were these gentlemen?

2 A. All the guys that were on trial that were in

3 the Kansas City case, which some of them are in the

4 picture and some of them aren't. Most of them are in

5 the picture.

6 Q. Did you have any interactions with any of

7 these individuals, like Jack Cerone, around this time,

8 around the time of the Super Bowl? Do you recall

9 specifically?

10 A. Yes, I did. One of the -- I said, as I

11 explained before, one of my functions was to courier

12 money from different states and, in some cases,

13 different countries that came into the United States and

14 that came into Chicago to these people.

15 Q. During the trial -- this is kind of unique --

16 but I was sent on a trip to Salt Lake City. I went to

17 Salt City with two other people and picked up a

18 million-and-a-half dollars in cash that was brought to

19 Salt Lake City from Las Vegas.

20 And then it was unwrapped and rewrapped and

21 brought in on a commercial airliner from Salt Lake City

22 to Chicago and then brought -- and it was to be used for

23 these gentlemen that were on trial families and to pay

24 their attorneys' fees.

25 I specifically dropped off several bundles,

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 one in Melrose Park, one downtown Chicago. But the

2 money was split up and it was taken to these different

3 locations. That was only on one occasion that I brought

4 money in from Las Vegas. This was during the trial.

5 Q. What did you understand Jack Cerone's position

6 in the outfit to be?

7 A. My opinion is, is that he was an underboss,

8 and on one occasion for a short period of time he was

9 the boss.

10 Q. During what period of time was he the boss?

11 A. I think he was the boss maybe in the early

12 sixties to the mid sixties, and then after that period

13 of time he was more or less just a confidant of

14 Tony Accardo's and an underboss.

15 Q. Let me show you another photograph after I

16 show it to Mr. Carmell (handing to counsel). It's

17 Exhibit 164C.

18 And Mr. Vaira ( handing to the hearing

19 officer).


21 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What is Exhibit 164C?

22 A. That's a photograph of Jack Cerone and another

23 individual.

24 Q. What time period is this? Where was this

25 photograph taken? Let's start there.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. This photograph was taken at Lexington Medical

2 Facility in the Federal Bureau of Prison Systems.

3 Q. When Mr. Cerone was in jail?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. How is it that we have a copy of this

6 photograph?

7 A. I gave it to you.

8 Q. How did you get it?

9 A. I received it from Jack about three months

10 before he passed away.

11 Q. Where did you receive it?

12 A. I received it here in Coleman FCI.

13 Q. So he sent you a picture of himself in prison.

14 A. Right. And the other kid. There's a reason

15 -- there was a reason why he sent it to me.

16 Q. What's that?

17 A. Okay. The gentleman that's in the picture

18 with him was with me ten years -- eight years ago in

19 Latuna, Texas, in the federal prison. And in my travels

20 -- the Bureau of Prisons puts you through a lot of

21 travels. In my travels through the system, I was in

22 El Reno, Oklahoma, and I found out that this other

23 gentleman in the photograph was on his way to Lexington.

24 He had been there with Jackie previous to that.

25 And I had a conversation with him. I told him

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 tell him I said hello, and when you get there, you know,

2 if you can do anything for him, I understand he's sick,

3 take care of him. Do what you can for him.

4 Well when he got there, he became

5 Jack Cerone's orderly and was taking care of everything,

6 wheelchair, bathing him. Everything that he needed,

7 this kid was taking care of.

8 When he got down here -- he's now here with

9 me. When he got down here with me -- this was back

10 before Jack died -- he wrote Jack a letter and said I'm

11 here with Mike, you know, well --

12 And so he sent him a picture with a note to my

13 attention. That's how I got the picture.

14 Q. So this picture came with a note?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. From --

17 A. From Jack.

18 Q. What did the note say?

19 A. The note said I'm very sick, and I believe

20 that I'm going home soon and I'm going home to die.

21 Q. Did you keep a copy of that note?

22 A. I have it, yes.

23 Q. We don't have it right here.

24 A. No.

25 MR. BOSTWICK: I move admission of

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Exhibit 164C.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's admitted.

3 (GEB Attroney's Exhibit Number 164C admitted

4 into evidence)

5 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) I believe the only two

6 other individuals on that photograph, which is Exhibit

7 -- I'm now referring to Exhibit 6A -- that we haven't

8 spoken about are individuals marked Number 9 and 10.

9 I'll start with 9. Who's that?

10 A. Number is Dominic Dibella.

11 Q. Can you describe who he is?

12 A. Dominic Dibella is -- was, he's passed away.

13 He's a former boss of the north side. He was, previous

14 to him passing, was Vince Solano's boss.

15 Q. How about Number 10?

16 A. Number 10 is Joey Aiuppa.

17 Q. Who is he?

18 A. Joey Aiuppa was probably Number 2 or Number 3

19 man for the last -- oh, until he went to prison, for the

20 last ten years before he went to prison.

21 Q. Did you have interactions with these

22 individuals at a restaurant called Meo's?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. What's the location of Meo's?

25 A. Meo's is on -- I believe it's Lake Street and

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Addison.

2 Q. What period of time did you have this

3 interaction?

4 A. I started going to Meo's on Addison in the

5 late -- maybe early seventies, late sixties.

6 They previously had a place in Chicago on

7 Irving. I think it was up -- or Harlem and Irving area

8 called the Nordic House or the Norway House -- the

9 Norwood House, The Norwood House. That place -- they

10 moved out of there and moved out to Addison.

11 I had previously gone to the one in Chicago

12 and I continued to go to the one out in Addison.

13 Q. The one out in the Addison, how long did you

14 go to that restaurant?

15 A. I went to it for about -- Joe Testa was killed

16 in '81. I went to it up until about '81.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. From the late sixties, early seventies until

19 '81.

20 Q. So it could have been a little longer than '81

21 or a little less than '81.

22 A. Right.

23 Q. But early eighties, approximately.

24 A. Right, early eighties.

25 Q. When and under what circumstances would you go

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 to Meo's?

2 A. There was a golf course close by there called

3 Brook Wood County Club, and a lot guys hung around

4 there, a lot of these particular guys. And a good

5 friend of mine Joe Testa was a member of Brook Wood and

6 had a home on Brook Wood, and he used to go there and

7 golf with some of these guys who he knew. After they

8 would golf, they would all go to Meo's and they'd eat

9 supper. It was just like a guy's thing, hang around

10 type thing.

11 Q. Joe Testa was involved in organized crime,

12 too, you've testified.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Continue.

15 A. Wednesday nights at Meo's was, like, a special

16 night. When I say "special," you know, maybe one or two

17 weeks out of the month, you know, Aiuppa, Accardo and a

18 few other guys would show up in there and they would

19 have dinner with four or five, six guys. This was

20 another thing that occurred there, like every month.

21 Q. This was on Wednesday nights?

22 A. Wednesday night was the -- you know, was the

23 night that he usually appeared.

24 Q. And this is throughout that period.

25 A. Yes. He was very close with the Meo family.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Let me show what I've marked as GEB Attorney

2 Exhibit Number 178 and ask you to describe what that is.

3 A. That's an interior layout of Meo's restaurant.

4 Q. Who prepared that?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. What time period is that accurate for?

7 A. That would be the time period that we just

8 spoke about.

9 Q. That's a reasonably accurate depiction of that

10 scene?

11 A. As best I could recall.

12 Q. Describe the scene and where these individuals

13 -- first of all, you ate with these individuals during

14 this period of time?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Approximately, how many times?

17 A. Twenty-five, thirty times.

18 Q. Can you describe the scene at Meo's restaurant

19 on Wednesday nights, where these individuals ate and

20 what the situation was?

21 A. There was a full dining area as you walked in

22 the door with a partition and then another dining area

23 on the side. There was a bar, which would be on the

24 right of the sketch. The kitchen was in the rear at the

25 left. And then they had a private dining room which

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 held I think maybe up to thirty people that was on the

2 right of the rear of the building.

3 Q. That's in the upper right-hand side of

4 Exhibit 178.

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. How would somebody get invited to that dinner?

7 A. Depending on the circumstances, depending on

8 who was in there, depending on what they were

9 discussing, there was only a certain crew that used that

10 dining room. I mean, you had to be invited. You

11 couldn't just walk in there and take a seat and eat.

12 You had to be invited into that room.

13 Q. It's a sealed-off and closed-off room?

14 A. They shut the door, and they would bring the

15 carts -- they would bring food carts up to the door,

16 open the door, bring them in and then shut the door

17 again.

18 Q. Was anybody at the door?

19 A. There was -- always there was somebody at the

20 door. When Accardo was there, Sam Carlisi would be at

21 the door.

22 Their drivers. A lot of these older guys had

23 drivers and they would be on the door. They would eat

24 in the kitchen or they would eat afterwards. They

25 wouldn't eat when he was eating.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Would you generally on these occasions that

2 you went there, would you go alone or with someone?

3 A. On a lot occasions I was there with Joe Testa.

4 On other occasions I was there with Sal Bastone. On a

5 couple of occasions I recall going there with a guy that

6 I had met and knew from the street, also, who was a part

7 of one of these crews, a guy named Vincent Inserro. I

8 went there a couple of times with him.

9 Q. Was there any chance that the individuals

10 dining and in that room while you were there on those

11 approximately twenty-five occasions, is there any chance

12 that those individuals would not be close associates of

13 organized crime?

14 A. There's no way. There's no way you could be

15 in there when that guy was in there unless you were in

16 some way associated with organized crime.

17 Q. Did you ever see money passed in that room?

18 A. Absolutely.

19 Q. How did that occur? Describe that.

20 A. Well he usually sat -- when he was in the

21 room --

22 Q. You're talking about Tony Accardo?

23 A. I'm talking about Tony Accardo. When

24 Tony Accardo was in the room, he usually sat facing the

25 doorway, off to the right of the table. And then he

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 would have -- he had a couple of good friends that

2 really were not OC guys, or organized crimes guys, that

3 were guys that he liked to be with, that were there with

4 him. Everybody knew who they were and they were there.

5 Then you would have other guys at the table.

6 And sometimes during the meal, you'd see two

7 or three guys get you, and they'd have their sportcoats

8 on and they'd go up there. They'd reach in their

9 pocket, take out a brown envelope or something, and you

10 knew what was in it in, I mean, you know, and they'd

11 pass the envelope to him, and he'd take it under the

12 table and put it in his pocket. When his pockets got

13 too full, he'd hand it to somebody else to take, guys

14 that were with him, guys that were close.

15 And then once in a while, he'd call over Sam

16 or he'd call over whoever drove him and give it all to

17 them and they'd take it out to the car. It was like a

18 wedding. It was like a boast.

19 Q. When you say "like a boast," what does that

20 mean?

21 A. Like a gift at a wedding.

22 Q. What was the size of the crowd in the dining

23 room on a given night that you would be there? What was

24 the range?

25 A. You mean the outside dining room?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. No. I'm talking still about the inside dining

2 room now, about the range of the number of people.

3 A. I would say the maximum people that were ever

4 in there were maybe fifteen or twenty people. I never

5 saw more than that in there. And the tables, like I

6 said, were hold thirty people.

7 Q. Did you ever see Vince Solano in there?

8 A. Absolutely.

9 Q. How about Al Pilotto?

10 A. I can't recall if I ever saw Al Pilotto there.

11 Q. I'm going to show you an individual here on

12 Exhibit 6. This is Exhibit 6C. Can you identify that

13 individual?

14 A. Yes, I can.

15 Q. Who's that?

16 A. Jimmy Caporale.

17 Q. Who is Jimmy Caporale?

18 A. I know Jimmy Caporale as something to do with

19 the union and also I know him of being around a lot of

20 these same people that we're talking about here.

21 Q. Did you ever see him in this back dining room

22 at Meo's?

23 A. Absolutely?

24 Q. On approximately how many occasions?

25 A. Every four or five occasions he was there.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Had dinner with them there with Mr. Accardo

2 and others?

3 A. Absolutely. Absolutely.

4 Q. Ever see him pass any money?

5 A. Absolutely. On at least three occasions I

6 seen him take a package to Accardo.

7 Q. At this restaurant.

8 A. At this restaurant.

9 Q. The individual that I'm going to show you now

10 is behind -- it's a photograph behind Exhibit 6L. Ever

11 seen that individual?

12 A. Yeah, I have. Yeah, I have.

13 Q. Do you know who that is?

14 A. I think I know who it is.

15 Q. Can you tell me who you think that is?

16 A. Is that Ernie Kumerow?

17 Q. Well tell me who you think that is.

18 A. I think it's Ernie Kumerow.

19 Q. Who is Ernie Kumerow?

20 A. That's his son-in-law, Tony Accardo's

21 son-in-law.

22 Q. Have you ever seen that picture before?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kumerow at Meo's?

25 A. Absolutely.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Approximately how may occasions?

2 A. At least three or four occasions. I've seen

3 him other places, though, but that's --

4 Q. Where else have you seen him?

5 A. I've seen him at his home, at Accardo's home

6 in Palm Desert, California, I've seen him on the golf

7 course at Brook Wood, I've seen him on the golf in

8 Palm Desert, California.

9 Q. Now apart from being a son-in-law of

10 Mr. Accardo, did you observe in any way that

11 Ernie Kumerow had a relationship with the Chicago

12 outfit?

13 A. You know, what I knew about him, I knew that

14 he did have a relationship with other guys that were

15 around the outfit. As to what his personal involvement

16 was, I'm not sure about that.

17 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kumerow passing any

18 money?

19 A. No. No, I didn't.

20 Q. Who were the other types of individuals that

21 Mr. Kumerow associated with who were in the Chicago

22 outfit?

23 A. One of the guys was Vince Solano that he was

24 around a lot, another guy was Pat Marcy that he was

25 around a lot, another guy was John Spano -- I mean,

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 John Serpico was another guy that he was around quite a

2 bit, who, to my knowledge, are all members of organized

3 crime.

4 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that he was

5 associated with organized crime apart from his --

6 A. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No doubt

7 whatsoever.

8 Q. How about the individual who's in

9 GEB Attorney's Exhibit 6E; have you ever seen that

10 individual?

11 A. I sure have.

12 Q. Who's that individual?

13 A. Bruno Caruso.

14 Q. Who's he?

15 A. Bruno Caruso is some big officer with the

16 union and a street associate of -- or an associate of a

17 lot of guys in the different crews.

18 Q. Did you ever see him at Meo's?

19 A. I think I might have seen him there a couple

20 of times. I'm not absolutely positive.

21 Q. What types of places would you see

22 Bruno Caruso?

23 A. Bruno Caruso was a big Rush Street guy, hung

24 around on Rush Street on the north side, downtown, and I

25 seen him personally, you know, four or five times in a

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 restaurant downtown called Counselor's Row.

2 Q. Let's get to that later.

3 When you say he's "a big Rush Street guy," do

4 you mean that he went out in the evenings to

5 Rush Street?

6 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he hung around Rush Street a

7 lot. And I was down there on business or I was down

8 there on pleasure and I would run into him and see him.

9 Q. Did you ever see him associating with

10 individuals in organized crime?

11 A. Oh, sure.

12 Q. Who is that?

13 A. Angelo LaPietra, Vince Solano. I believe I

14 saw him a couple of times years ago with Al Pilotto.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: How about LaPietra;

16 where did you see him?

17 THE WITNESS: I seen him on Rush Street with

18 Angelo LaPietra.

19 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What, at bars or

20 restaurants or something?

21 A. No. Primarily, they hung around at a couple

22 places, Faces, Sweetwater's, Harry's Cafe, those places

23 down there on Rush Street. I also seen him in

24 Elmwood Park a couple of times. Elmwood Park at a place

25 called LaCampannia. And he was with -- I'm trying to

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 think of who I saw him there with. I can't remember who

2 it was right now, I did see him around.

3 Q. You mentioned Counselor's Row a couple of

4 times. Let me switch your focus to Counselor's Row.

5 I'll show you what has already -- well actually, this is

6 a new exhibit. This is Exhibit 168B.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Have we seen this

8 before?

9 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, in a slightly different

10 form.


12 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What is this exhibit?

13 A. That's an interior drawing sketch of the

14 interior of Counselor's Row, a restaurant on

15 LaSalle Street downtown.

16 Q. Who prepared this?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Is this a reasonably accurate depiction of

19 Counselor's Row?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. During what period of time?

22 A. During the seventies and eighties.

23 MR. BOSTWICK: I move for its admission at

24 this time. This is 168B. We've had another one 168A.

25 THE HEARING OFFICER: We've had one like this

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 before, so fine. It's admitted. We had something like

2 this before.

3 (GEB Attroney's Exhibit Number 168B admitted

4 into evidence)

5 MR. CARMELL: Did I understand him to say that

6 he prepared this?

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, he said he drew it.

8 THE WITNESS: I drew it.

9 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now, Mr. Corbitt, you

10 mentioned, also, the name Pat Marcy a few times. Who is

11 Pat Marcy?

12 A. Pat Marcy is the owner of an insurance company

13 in Chicago, and also, at the time I knew him one of the

14 -- probably one of the top guys in organized crime as

15 far as the politicians and the police and everything.

16 As far as major fixing was concerned, Pat Marcy took

17 care of it.

18 Q. During what period of time was this?

19 A. Seventies and eighties.

20 Q. What types of things -- you say "fixing".

21 A. Everything.

22 Q. What types of things did he do?

23 A. Promotions, he made judges, zoning, boat

24 slips, apartments, traffic fixes, court fixes. Anything

25 you wanted fixed he took care of it.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. What was the nature of your relationship with

2 Pat Marcy?

3 A. I was a very close associate of his for about

4 six or seven years. We had a mutual interest as far as

5 I was delivering large amounts of currency to him from

6 other people in OC, or organized crime.

7 We had a lot of personal experiences. I did

8 all the security in his new home, I provided the alarm

9 service. I did all the security in his son's home in

10 Burr Ridge. I did some wire taps for him.

11 Q. When you say "did some wire taps for him,"

12 what do you mean?

13 A. We wire taped some business associates -- an

14 attorney and a business associate that he thought might

15 be screwing him in a deal and we wired taped their

16 phones.

17 Q. Was this official police business?

18 A. No, absolutely not.

19 Q. Did you use police equipment?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. During what period of time was this?

22 A. Mid seventies. Mid seventies and then again

23 in the late seventies.

24 Q. When was the last time you saw Pat Marcy?

25 A. The morning I was -- my bond was revoked in my

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 case.

2 Q. When you were going to jail?

3 A. I had breakfast with him the morning I -- the

4 morning they revoked my bond, I had breakfast with him

5 at Counselor's Row and brought him a package.

6 Q. What was in the package?

7 A. Thirty-five thousand dollars.

8 Q. What was that for?

9 A. It was his end on something that I was given

10 as a messenger to deliver, and I knew what it was

11 because it wasn't wrapped up and I had it in

12 thousand-dollar stacks.

13 Q. So this is in 1987?

14 A. 1987, October 8th.

15 Q. You got a booth back in one corner of this

16 photograph. Describe the scene in Counselor's Row on --

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who gave you the money

18 to bring to him?

19 THE WITNESS: A gentle by the name of

20 Hy Larner.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: A bail bondsman?

22 THE WITNESS: No. A guy who ran all the

23 gambling in Central American.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I thought he was a bail

25 bondsman.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 THE WITNESS: No, no, you're talking about

2 Wiener.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.

4 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Can you describe the scene

5 in Counselor's Row?

6 A. Counselor's Row was a street level restaurant

7 that was directly across from City Hall on

8 LaSalle Street. If you walked in through double-glass

9 doors, to the right were five or six phone booths. If

10 you walked in to your left, there was a stairway going

11 downstairs to a lower level. There was also a bar and a

12 restaurant down there.

13 Behind the stairway was a private booth that

14 was -- nobody sat in. It was specifically there for

15 Pat Marcy's use and John D'Arco and Fred Roti, the

16 Alderman of the First Ward, and several other

17 politicians used it. But it was primarily there for

18 Pat Marcy.

19 It had a telephone at the booth. It was all

20 decorated in pictures of former mayors and politicians

21 and -- it was kind of cute.

22 Q. The indication on GEB Attorney Exhibit 168B,

23 that booth is in the lower left-hand corner?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Did you ever meet with Pat Marcy there?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. How often was he there?

3 A. He was there every day, five days week.

4 Q. During what period of time?

5 A. I would say from the mid seventies until -- I

6 believe he was there for a short period after I came in.

7 Q. Ever conduct outfit related business in or

8 around Counselor's Row with Pat Marcy?

9 A. Absolutely.

10 Q. Tell us how you would generally conduct that

11 business with Pat Marcy.

12 A. Pat Marcy was pretty much privy to everything

13 that was going on in the city i. e., vending, juice

14 loan, prostitution, everything that was going on. He

15 knew what was going on and --

16 Q. You're talking about organized crime.

17 A. Organized crime. And I believe that he

18 ultimately got a piece of everything that was going on

19 because he was the major fixer, and that's what his --

20 what he should have got.

21 Anyway, some of the people who I would be

22 assigned to deliver stuff to, as I told you before, I

23 would deliver to Pat Marcy, and then ultimately I would

24 -- I ended delivering it to them directly.

25 One of the people who I delivered things to

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 never let you come to his home, and that was Gus Alex

2 who lived on Marine Drive, someplace downtown. So when

3 there was a package for him, and there was every month,

4 that I was to bring it downtown. I would take it to

5 Pat Marcy's booth. Pat Marcy would pick up the phone

6 and call Gus.

7 Gus would come downtown and -- he wouldn't

8 come into the restaurant. He'd go into the parking

9 garage. Then I would go into the parking garage and

10 take him his package, and he'd get in his car and leave.

11 And many other things. Anytime there was any

12 kind of problem that anybody associated with OC had with

13 the City of Chicago, the actual -- the alderman or

14 anything like that, I would bring messages down, I would

15 bring things other down. I would make a phone call, get

16 it handled. I would, you know, pick up checks for

17 legitimate businesses, pick them up early and stuff like

18 that.

19 Don't forget now. Pat was getting a package

20 every month, and I would be the guy who brought him his.

21 We became, not friends, fairly close, because he had me

22 do a lot things that I don't think he would have let

23 anybody else do unless he was close to them.

24 As I said before, I supervised and installed

25 all the alarms in his new home. He was very paranoid.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 I mean, he had everything high tech you could get in his

2 home. I also did his son's home.

3 I also had previously supervised some closed

4 circuit TV work in his other home up in DesPlaines. So

5 we were close enough that he trusted me to do that, and

6 plus he trusted to do a lot of other things, too.

7 Q. Did these conversations relating to organized

8 crime in Counselor's Row generally take place in front

9 of people at that booth?

10 A. On some occasions, depending on who was in the

11 booth. In this sketch these booths that I have that are

12 behind Booth 1 are a little closer than they actually

13 were. They were, like, back, maybe by the second --

14 there wasn't any real close contact to that booth.

15 But on some occasions, one of my -- when I

16 brought -- we had two briefcases that were identical.

17 And when I would bring down his briefcase and see him,

18 he would know the day I was coming and he would bring

19 his and we would just switch briefcases. I know it

20 sounds a little corny, but that's what we did. I would

21 bring a briefcase in, set it by him, pick up the other

22 briefcase and leave.

23 Well on some occasions, if the wrong person

24 was at the booth and he didn't want to do it, he'd give

25 you the high sign. There was a door that led into

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 another high-rise building next door to Counselor's Row

2 where there was a bank of elevators. Pat Marcy's

3 offices and John D'Arco's offices for the First Ward in

4 Chicago were in that building. I think they were on the

5 fifth or sixth floor. I'm not sure.

6 He would give you the high sign, you'd bring

7 the briefcase, come out in the hallway, you know, you'd

8 do it real secret, you know, and come back inside. If

9 it was something where you needed any kind of long

10 discussion, then you would go up to his office.

11 But primarily, a lot of business was conducted

12 at that table.

13 Q. A lot of legitimate business was conducted at

14 that table?

15 A. No. I mean, legitimate business maybe. I was

16 never privy to any of that, if there was any. I'm sure

17 there may have been, but --

18 Q. What type of job did Pat Marcy hold with

19 respect to the city? Are you aware of any?

20 A. I think maybe at some time he might have been

21 a committeeman, but I don't think he ever held a job

22 with the city or a political job. He was just a major

23 fixer. He was just a downtown guy.

24 Q. Did you ever observe Pat Marcy get up from

25 that booth and discuss matters with individuals

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 personally?

2 A. Oh, sure. I've seen him get up. There would

3 be somebody sitting in another booth, and he'd go, you

4 know, and sit in the booth with them and have a

5 conversation, then come back an sit down at the table

6 and leave people sitting there. I mean --

7 Q. Was that a pattern that indicated anything to

8 you?

9 A. I know that he was very paranoid about what

10 was going on. We were constantly checking his phone. I

11 mean, he had people checking, not just that phone, but

12 every phone he had, his cars, everything. He was

13 constantly getting his stuff all swept. He was very

14 paranoid.

15 Q. You mentioned Bruno Caruso. You saw him in

16 Counselor's Row --

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. -- on a number of occasions. Can you

19 describe those occasions, what happened?

20 A. On several occasions that Bruno came in -- and

21 I saw Bruno and Frank in there both.

22 Q. Who's Frank?

23 A. Frank Caruso. On several occasions I seen

24 them both in there. I've seen conversations with

25 Pat Marcy from some sort of -- I'd be in a booth over

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 here. I'd move over to another table if somebody said,

2 you know, I'm going to conduct some business or

3 something.

4 And just observing, I would -- I seen

5 Bruno Caruso pass an envelope to Pat Marcy. I seen

6 Pat Marcy take it, stick it in his pocket. On a couple

7 of occasions, I saw Frank Caruso do the same thing.

8 And I would say that I've seen them in -- in

9 all the times that I was down there, I seen them in

10 there maybe fifteen or twenty times.

11 Q. That's Bruno Caruso you're talking about?

12 A. Bruno Caruso and Frank Caruso on different

13 occasions. They weren't always together. Occasionally,

14 they were together.

15 Q. What's the nature of their relationship, if

16 you know, family relationship or whatever?

17 A. Bruno and Frank?

18 Q. Right.

19 A. They're brothers.

20 Q. Did you see Frank Caruso on other occasions?

21 A. Sure. I seen Frank Caruso at different social

22 events, I saw Frank Caruso on Rush Street, I saw him in

23 Chinatown, I saw him in Greektown, you know, I saw him

24 around quite a bit in Chicago.

25 Q. What was your understanding of Frank Caruso's

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 participation or association with organized crime?

2 A. The knowledge that I had is that he was a

3 juice man; that he loaned money and collected money and,

4 you know, he was in the juice business. I did know that

5 he had some affiliation with the union, but I wasn't

6 aware of what union it was.

7 Q. Did you ever see him with any individuals

8 associated with organized crime other than Pat Marcy as

9 you've just described?

10 A. I've seen him with Angelo also. You're

11 talking about Frank?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I saw Angelo with -- Angelo LaPietra with him,

14 I saw him with Johnny Monteleone on many occasions. As

15 a matter of fact, I was them together in a restaurant

16 before I came in out south called Artie G's. I think it

17 was in Palos Heights -- Palos Hills. I seen him with

18 quite a few outfit guys.

19 Q. Artie G's. What was that restaurant?

20 A. Artie G's is a restaurant owned by Artie Greco

21 that was at, I think, 123rd and Harlem or

22 127th and Harlem in Palos Heights. It was a hangout.

23 It was -- a lot of guys hung out there.

24 Q. Did you ever meet an individual named

25 Robert Cooley?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. Who's he?

3 A. Robert Cooley is a former attorney. I don't

4 know what he's doing now.

5 Q. In what context did you meet him?

6 A. I met him in Counselor's Row maybe thirty

7 times. I mean, I didn't meet him thirty times. I've

8 seen him in there. I met him a couple of times.

9 Q. Do you understand that he had any relationship

10 with organized crime?

11 A. He was always with the boys. My understanding

12 is that he did.

13 Q. Do you know what types of things he did?

14 A. I think he was -- he was an attorney. He did

15 a lot of legal work. He did a lot of legal work in the

16 city, he did a lot of legal work in the suburb. As a

17 matter of fact, I think he was -- his offices were in

18 the same office with Congressman Lipinski.

19 Q. How about Leo Caruso; do you know an

20 individual named Leo Caruso?

21 A. I knew Leo Caruso, but I don't know really a

22 lot about him. I've seen him around over the years. I

23 seen him on Rush Street. I can't think of a lot about

24 Leo.

25 Q. Do you know what relationship, if any, he has

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 with Frank or Bruno?

2 A. I believe he's their cousin. Cousin.

3 Q. Do you know if he's involved with organized

4 crime in any way?

5 A. I've seen him with people. You know, I can't

6 say that he is absolutely involved. I seen him with

7 different people.

8 Q. How about Dominic Palermo?

9 A. Dominic "Tootsie" Palermo?

10 Q. Yeah.

11 A. I've known Dominic for thirty years. Yeah, I

12 know Dominic very well.

13 Q. Do you know if he had any relationship with

14 organized crime?

15 A. Absolutely. He's one of Al Pilotto's guys.

16 He was with Angelo LaPietra. He was with a lot of

17 people. Absolutely.

18 Q. Can you give us some examples?

19 A. Well examples of just seeing and hearing and

20 knowing what I was told by other people, you know, I

21 don't know if you want that. I know that there were

22 insinuations that he was a very capable guy; that he did

23 -- may have had done some killing for some people in --

24 did some hits years ago.

25 Q. How about personal interactions with respect

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 to criminal activities; did you have any personal

2 interactions with Dominic Palermo?

3 A. No. No. I knew who he is. I've seen him in

4 my life maybe twenty, thirty times.

5 Q. Nick Guzzino. You mentioned him earlier in

6 your testimony. What did you understand his

7 relationship with organized crime to be?

8 A. I understood that he was a member of

9 Al Pilotto's crew, Al Tocco's crew. He was with that

10 whole group out of the Heights.

11 Q. How did you understand that?

12 A. Well just from being around him. I know he

13 was with Chris Messino. I was around him on several

14 occasions at different places where had he not been with

15 them guys, he wouldn't have been there.

16 Q. But it's not a situation like Vince Solano or

17 Al Pilotto or James Caporale where you actually saw

18 money passed --

19 A. No.

20 Q. -- or actually passed money back and forth.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that

23 Nick Guzzino and Dominic Palermo, for instance, were

24 involved with organized crime?

25 A. Absolutely not.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. How about Frank DeMonte?

2 A. Frank DeMonte I've known for twenty-five

3 years. Frank DeMonte was also with Angelo LaPietra. I

4 didn't know that he as involved with the union, but I

5 know Frank DeMonte.

6 Q. What types of things did you understand him to

7 do for organized crime?

8 A. He was a juice collector. He collected juice

9 money and put money on the street.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who's this you're

11 talking about?

12 THE WITNESS: Pardon me?

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who's this you're

14 talking about?

15 THE WITNESS: Frank DeMonte.

16 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Did you ever have any

17 personal hand-to-hand monetary interaction with him?

18 A. No. No.

19 Q. How did you understand that this is what Frank

20 DeMonte's position was in the outfit?

21 A. Just from being around and interacting with

22 him and hearing things that were going on.

23 THE WITNESS: Dwight, is there any chance to

24 take few minutes out here?

25 MR. BOSTWICK: Yeah. Why don't we take a few

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 minutes and --

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's take about a ten

3 minute break.

4 (Recess from 11:40 a. m. to 12:00 noon)

5 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Mr. Corbitt, we were

6 talking about Pat Marcy and some of the Carusos, I

7 think, when we left off. Let me ask you an additional

8 question about Pat Marcy.

9 I'm going to show you Exhibit 179 and ask you

10 what that is?

11 A. This is a private security pass to his home

12 in Hinsdale.

13 Q. To Pat Marcy's home?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Where was that?

16 A. It was in Gramau Mill Subdivision in Hinsdale,

17 right off of York Road and Ogden. This was 4/5/87,

18 dated 4/5/87.

19 Q. How far in advance of your going to jail was

20 that?

21 A. I went in October. That was May.

22 Q. How is it that we received this document?

23 A. I gave it to you.

24 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd move admission of

25 Exhibit 179.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We'll admit it.

2 (GEB Attorney's Exhibit Number 179 admitted

3 into evidence)

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: This is a private

5 security pass or --

6 THE WITNESS: Pass. It's a gated community.

7 Every time you came in, you had to have one of those to

8 get in and out. You couldn't get out without it. I

9 took it in and I kept it.

10 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now Fred Roti, you

11 mentioned him in your testimony, but not gotten into him

12 at all. What his relationship, if any, to Pat Marcy?

13 A. Best friend.

14 Q. During what period of time?

15 A. For twenty years, twenty-five years, during

16 the seventies and eighties. And I believe Fred Roti and

17 him were indicted together in a case, and Fred Roti was

18 convicted and Pat died during the trial.

19 Q. Did you observe whether or not Fred Roti was

20 ever at Counselor's Row?

21 A. Every day.

22 Q. With Pat Marcy?

23 A. Pat Marcy.

24 Q. Did you ever know him to be involved in

25 organized crime related activities with Pat Marcy or

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 not?

2 A. Not really, just -- I know he was associated

3 with him. He was with him all the time. I mean, I

4 don't know of anything directly relating him to

5 anything.

6 Q. Now as to Frank Caruso, you mentioned that you

7 had seen associate with Johnny Monteleone.

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And who was Johnny Monteleone?

10 A. Johnny Monteleone is -- was a boss on the

11 south side, southwest side, and I -- and he was involved

12 with me personally in a couple of operations for two

13 years previous to me leaving the job on the police

14 department.

15 Q. What types of jobs?

16 A. He was running a casino. He ran a casino in

17 Willow Springs, an illegal gambling casino at Archer and

18 Willow Springs Road for about a year-and-a-half before

19 it was turned over to somebody else. The casino stayed,

20 just the management changed. It was just a different

21 crew moving in.

22 Q. Did you ever see Bruno Caruso with

23 Johnny Monteleone?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Approximately, when and under what

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 circumstances?

2 A. It was some time in the late sixties, early

3 seventies at a place called Harry's Cafe on Rush Street.

4 Maybe several others places, but I can't recall

5 precisely where.

6 Q. What time frame?

7 A. In the mid seventies to the late seventies.

8 Q. Now Jimmy DiForti or James Diforti, do you

9 know that individual?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. How do you know him?

12 A. I know him from being around other people that

13 I was familiar with and just different descriptions of

14 what he did from other people and what I saw. He was

15 very closely associated, also, with Johnny Monteleone.

16 Q. Did you know of him to have any relationship

17 to organized crime?

18 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

19 Q. What was that?

20 A. He was a juice man and he was the money man

21 behind putting juice loans on the street.

22 Q. During what period of time?

23 A. Seventies into the eighties, mid seventies

24 into the early eighties.

25 Q. Ever meet him personally?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Yes, I have.

2 Q. What types of experiences have you had with

3 him?

4 A. No real experiences. I think I met him on

5 several occasions at Faces on Rush Street. I think I

6 met him in Solano's kid's restaurant, Billy's, on Rush

7 Street. I know I met him maybe five or six times total.

8 Q. Did you see interact with members or

9 associates of organized crime?

10 A. Absolutely.

11 Q. Who?

12 A. Vince Solano, Johnny Apes --

13 Johnny Monteleone, Angelo LaPietra. That's about all I

14 can think of right now.

15 Q. Could there have been others?

16 A. I'm sure there are.

17 Q. Now you mentioned Joe Testa. Joe Testa,

18 T-E-S-T-A?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you describe a little more fully for us

21 what the nature of your relationship was with Joe Testa?

22 A. I met Joe Testa in the -- in the late sixties,

23 and after that meeting we became very close, I mean, all

24 most to the situation of brothers. He took care of a

25 lot of things for me as far as my family was concerned.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 He was a very, very wealthy individual. We

2 hung together, we hung out together, we traveled

3 together, we went through a lot of tragedies together,

4 and he was -- during that time period until he was

5 killed, he was my best friend.

6 Q. What did you understand that Mr. Testa did

7 with respect to organized crime?

8 A. In an early period of his life, Joe was the

9 owner of a savings and loan. Through this savings and

10 loan he was able to facilitate the exchange of cash for

11 things that were -- you were able to legitimize, such as

12 properties.

13 And several major outfit people made purchases

14 and bought stuff through him and his savings and loan,

15 large parcels of land, apartment complexes and stuff,

16 and they did it with cash through him.

17 Q. Did there come a time when Joe Testa got

18 himself in a bind with the mob?

19 A. A very serious one. Back in the mid seventies

20 he was being pressured to pay back a large amount of

21 money that was loaned to somebody who had subsequently

22 gone to prison and died.

23 His theory and thoughts were, the guy's dead;

24 the loan's dead. I don't owe this money; I'm not paying

25 this money.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Well he expressed those feelings to the

2 collectors, and everything he had started blowing up.

3 They blew up his restaurant, they blew up his home, they

4 blew up his office, they planted a bomb on his car, and

5 he was unable to, you know, get rid of this problem. We

6 tried. We tried very hard.

7 Q. You tried with him?

8 A. I tried with him.

9 Q. What types of things did you do?

10 A. I went to people that I knew, I went to people

11 that I felt could take care of the problem. I went with

12 him on one occasion to -- whom he was also very close to

13 -- Tony Accardo. He golfed with him. Tony Accardo was

14 on his boat. We took him fishing, we took his wife and

15 him fishing in Florida, we took him and other associates

16 fishing to Bimini, which is an island just off of

17 Florida. Joe golfed with him and --

18 Q. So you went to Tony Accardo?

19 A. We went to Tony Accardo. We had a meeting

20 with him at 3:00 in the morning at a restaurant in

21 Elmwood Park.

22 Q. Who was there?

23 A. Tony Accardo was there, Sam Carlisi was there,

24 myself, Joe, and I believe -- I'm not sure, I believe

25 that Joey Aiuppa was there also.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Approximately, when was this?

2 A. 1989 -- 1979. No. 1980.

3 Q. What occurred?

4 A. At the meeting -- I was initially left out in

5 the car. I was in the car. I was in the car for about

6 an hour, and then Sam Carlisi came out and he said come

7 inside.

8 I said what for?

9 He said he wants you inside.

10 He said he. He meant Tony. So I came inside.

11 Q. You understood him to mean Tony Accardo.

12 A. Well, yeah, Tony Accardo.

13 So I came inside, and he said what are you

14 sitting out in the car for?

15 I said, well I didn't think I was invited.

16 He said, no, you're invited. Come in here.

17 So I sat down. They were sitting around the

18 table. They were just drinking coffee, and Joe

19 explained his problem.

20 His thoughts on the matter were this.

21 Q. Mr. Accardo's?

22 A. Mr. Accardo said, listen, Joe, you're my

23 friend, you've been my friend. I've known you for a lot

24 of years, and you don't owe me nothing. You owe me

25 nothing. But you apparently owe somebody something and

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 it's out of my control. You got two choices.

2 And Joe said what do you mean I got two

3 choices.

4 He said you got two choices. You pay them or

5 you chop them.

6 Q. And what did you understand that to mean?

7 A. Kill them.

8 And he said I can't do anything for you. I

9 don't want to discuss this again. And that was it. We

10 got up and left.

11 Q. Did anything subsequently happen to Mr. Testa?

12 A. In June of '81 -- June of '80', '81, I'm not

13 exactly correct on the date. I think it was '81. It

14 might have been '80. After this occurred he had a major

15 heart attack and the doctor scheduled him for open heart

16 surgery.

17 In the interim, he got better and he decided

18 to take a trip. So he went out of the country for a

19 month. He went to Egypt and Greece and Europe, all over

20 Europe.

21 He returned to the United States and he called

22 me at 3:00 in the morning when he got in and told me to

23 come to Florida, he was going to have a welcome home

24 party. He had a four million dollar home in Florida

25 right on the ocean, a beautiful place.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 And as he -- the following morning --

2 I told him, Joe, I can't come down there. At

3 that particular time I had his girlfriend's daughter

4 staying at my house in Chicago. So I said there's no

5 way I can come down, I got to stay. I'll come down in a

6 week or so.

7 That next afternoon at about 4:00 in the

8 afternoon I received a call from his secretary that Joe

9 had been blown up in his car at a golf course in

10 Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Tamarac Golf Course, which is

11 right outside of Fort Lauderdale. He subsequently died

12 three days later. He was blown to pieces.

13 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as

14 GEB Attorney's Exhibit 57. It's a couple of news

15 articles. Can I get you to take a look at those?

16 A. Yeah. These are articles in regards to the --

17 his killing.

18 Q. Where are these from?

19 A. I think one of them is the Sun Times. They're

20 all from the Sun Times. These are all from the

21 Sun -- Sun Times and the Tribune.

22 Q. How did our office receive these?

23 A. I gave them to you.

24 Q. Look at the last page of this document. I got

25 a couple of markings on it. Could you read the first

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 sentence. I'm sorry. The -- yeah, the first sentence.

2 Q. "Willow Springs Police Chief Michael Corbitt

3 and John Hinchy, Deputy Chief and Detective for the

4 Chicago Police Department, inherit a hundred and

5 twenty-seven thousand five hundred dollars each in the

6 will of Joseph Testa, slain businessman and reputed

7 associate of Chicago mobsters."

8 Q. Did you, in fact, receive that money from

9 Mr. Testa's will?

10 A. That ain't even a small percentage. They were

11 the wrong figures.

12 Q. So that's a portion of the money you received?

13 A. That was a very small portion of what I

14 received.

15 Q. How about the other highlight; it says the man

16 was torn up. Do you see that --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- on the right side of the column?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you read that? This is a quote from you

21 to the reporter?

22 A. "The man was torn up by the persistent rumors

23 of mob connection. Corbitt said just because of the

24 Italian extraction and he ate in the same places that

25 these mobsters did, he was reputed to be in mob circles.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Mr. Testa was a hard working, self-made man. He said

2 there were no mob ties."

3 Q. Is that true?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why did you tell the reporter that?

6 A. What was I going to say? What was I going to

7 say, Joe Testa was all mobbed up? I mean, he got killed

8 and he's all mobbed up. No. I said what I thought I

9 should say.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well it wouldn't look

11 too good for a policeman getting a gift from a mobster

12 and saying, yeah, I knew he was a mobster. Is that what

13 you're saying?

14 THE WITNESS: Right.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tell me about Hinchy.

16 Hinchy was in the Chicago Police. Am I right?

17 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

18 MR. CARMELL: What date is this, these

19 articles?

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Carmell, I'm reading

21 here --

22 MR. CARMELL: I'm just trying to find out what

23 date this --

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm trying to find out,

25 too, but -- no, that's not it. It says, "The second

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 blast in two day."

2 Oh, here. I have it right here. I have it

3 right here. All right. These are -- it looks like

4 they're -- is this one article?

5 MR. BOSTWICK: No. There are two separate

6 articles.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Sunday's

8 Sun Times, June 28, 1980-something. They all run

9 together, so they're, like, two or three days apart. So

10 whatever that date is --

11 THE WITNESS: I think it was '80 or '81. I'm

12 not sure if t was '80 or '81.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well we should be able

14 to find that out.


16 THE HEARING OFFICER: What relationship did he

17 have to Hinchy?

18 MR. BOSTWICK: We could probably find that out

19 through Nexus.

20 THE WITNESS: Hinchy was a good friend. He

21 just traveled with him in Europe previous to -- he was

22 at his home when he was slain.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: He was down here when he

24 was blown up?

25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, he was -- he didn't feel

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 like playing golf that day.


3 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) This comment that just

4 because of his Italian extraction and he ate in the same

5 places these mobsters did, that he was reputed to be in

6 mob circles. Can you expand on why -- on whether you

7 heard that type of commentary before?

8 A. What do you mean whether I heard it before?

9 Q. Well what is this -- why did you say this?

10 A. Well because, you know, anytime somebody gets

11 accused -- some Italian guy gets accused of something,

12 they say, well, you know, just because of my Italian

13 extraction, I got to be all mobbed up.

14 You know, I know a lot of guys in these crews

15 that weren't Italian. They were Irish, they were

16 Jewish, they were Polish. I don't think it has anything

17 to do with Italian.

18 Q. From this experience with Mr. Testa's death

19 and other experiences, did you form an opinion of how

20 dangerous it is for a mob associate not to do the mob's

21 bidding?

22 A. Absolutely. And I know from other experiences

23 that went on during this time period and other time

24 periods where wannabes and associates and guys who were

25 around these creeps, they'll kill you in a New York

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 second. They don't care nothing about you. It's all

2 what you got in your wallet.

3 Q. Is it possible in your experience for some of

4 these individuals who were involved with the union, who

5 you testified are associated with organized crime, to be

6 -- to not follow directions from the mob?

7 A. Rephrase that again. Is it --

8 Q. Would it be possible from your experience for

9 some of these individuals, like Vince Solano, who were

10 in the mob or associated with the mob, to fail to do the

11 mob's bidding in their union positions?

12 A. Absolutely not. There's no way they could get

13 away with it. Who put them in there. Why are they

14 there to start with.

15 MR. CARMELL: Is that a question or is that

16 his answer?

17 THE WITNESS: That's a statement.

18 MR. CARMELL: Okay. Based on your knowledge

19 of the union. Right?

20 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. Absolutely.

21 MR. CARMELL: Okay.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: Well we have cross-examination

23 coming. Right?

24 MR. CARMELL: Yeah, it's coming.

25 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now, Mr. Corbitt, let me

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 show you Exhibit Number 21 -- I'm sorry -- 20 and 21.

2 Well before I do, the statement that you just

3 made, is your basis for that statement your association

4 with the union you had or is it your association with

5 organized crime?

6 A. My association with organized crime. I really

7 had no association with this union.

8 Q. Let me show you Exhibits 20 and 21, and I'm

9 just going to tell you that Exhibit -- I believe these

10 both have been stipulated to. Exhibit 20 is an

11 indictment, and you can take a look at that, and

12 Exhibit 21 is a verdict form. Is the Sal Bastone on

13 those documents the Sal Bastone that you've been

14 referring to throughout your testimony?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd move admission of those.

17 I'm think we've stipulated to them, Sherman.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think you have.

19 They're admitted.

20 (GEB Attorney's Exhibit Number 20 and 21

21 admitted into evidence)

22 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now let me clarify --

23 MR. CARMELL: What's the date of the verdict?

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: The date of the verdict.

25 MR. SHERMAN: Yes.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm looking down here to

2 see what it is.

3 MR. BOSTWICK: Well it's case Number 86. So

4 it's a 1986 case.

5 MR. CARMELL: Okay. That's what I want to

6 know, the time range.

7 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Let me ask you to clarify,

8 Mr. Corbitt. You've never provided testimony -- sworn

9 testimony for the Federal Government. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Why are you doing this now?

12 A. I have three reason why I'm doing this. We

13 discussed one already. In 1980, Joe Testa was being

14 extorted by the same people that I'd been around all my

15 life. I went to them and tried to get the problem

16 resolved. They blew him up. They couldn't even kill

17 him with any dignity. He suffered for three days. He

18 died three days after the explosion.

19 When I came to prison, I had a three-year-old

20 son from my third marriage who was diagnosed with major

21 illnesses. He's Down syndrome. He's got heart

22 problems, he's got thyroid problems, he's got kidney

23 problems. And Salvatore Bastone, my child's godfather

24 and my best friend, in this past ten years has not

25 visited him, a birthday card, a Christmas card, one ball

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 game. He hasn't seen him in ten years.

2 Also, in 1987 when I was arraigned on my

3 indictment, my first indictment, I was called to meet

4 with two gentlemen that I knew for a period of years

5 previous to my indictment, both FBI agents,

6 Jack O'Rourke and Robert Pecoraro.

7 They met me in a restaurant and explained to

8 me that in an overhear, a Title 3 overhear, after they

9 had cleared it with their bosses, they brought me

10 information that since my indictment certain members of

11 people that I've been around all my life decided I would

12 be the better for them if I was dead. And somebody

13 ordered my death.

14 So I had to move out of my home, leave my

15 family for the entire time before I went to trial

16 because I did not want them to be involved in any kind

17 of situation that might happen to me.

18 Subsequent to that, two years after I was

19 already in the FCC and doing time on my first case, I

20 ran into the gentleman that was suppose to kill me and

21 he explained the entire story and who ordered it. He

22 later took his own life.

23 Q. What was his name?

24 A. Gerry Scarpelli.

25 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't have anything further.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: How come there a hit out

2 for you?

3 THE WITNESS: They were afraid that I was

4 going to roll over on my indictment.



7 Q. Let's begin with the three reasons why you say

8 you're here.

9 MR. GRIFFITH: Excuse me. Can I interrupt for

10 a second?


12 MR. GRIFFITH: Bruno has said that the wants

13 to talk to Sherman before the cross-examination starts.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who does, sir?

15 MR. BOSTWICK: Can you say that again?

16 MR. GRIFFITH: Bruno Caruso has asked to talk

17 to his attorney, Mr. Carmell, before the

18 cross-examination starts.

19 MR. BOSTWICK: What we can do, if we pick the

20 phone up and take it off speaker, and, Joe, if you take

21 it off the pad, they can talk on this phone and we'll

22 exit the room.

23 (Recess from 12:20 p. m. to 12:35 p. m.)

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: We're going to go back

25 on the record now and Sherman Carmell is going to

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 cross-exam.

2 Okay. Go ahead, Sherman.

3 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) One reason that you are

4 testifying here is because in 1980 your good friend

5 Testa was, as you put it, was killed by the people you

6 had worked with. Is that right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. That happened in 1980 and you continued to

9 work for these people all the way up until the day you

10 went to jail in 1987. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. So you were not conscience stricken in 1980 by

13 Testa, were you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Only sometime after being in the federal

16 prison did you get your conscience stricken. Is that

17 fair?

18 A. You can say that's fair.

19 Q. About how long ago did your conscience first

20 strike you concerning Mr. Testa's death?

21 A. Maybe ten years ago.

22 Q. And ten years ago did you begin giving

23 statements to any federal officials concerning what you

24 know or knew about organized crime?

25 A. No.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. When is the first time that you gave -- and

2 I'm not using these LIUNA people as federal officials.

3 I'm talking about the Department of Justice, FBI.

4 When is the first time you ever told any

5 federal official about matters which you have testified

6 to here?

7 A. Federal people.

8 Q. Yeah.

9 A. In 1987, early, I attempted, attempted, to

10 debrief for the federal people, you're talking about.

11 They didn't want to hear it.

12 Q. At that time they didn't want to hear it

13 because they believed you were a liar, didn't they?

14 A. No. I think that they thought that I was a

15 big fish, which I wasn't really.

16 Q. You're saying that the federal officials

17 wouldn't listen to anything you had to say concerning

18 organized crime.

19 A. Absolutely.

20 Q. And was that Mr. Scorza?

21 A. Absolutely.

22 Q. He was the one who prosecuted you in one of

23 the RICCO cases. Is that right?

24 A. All of my cases.

25 Q. All of them. All right.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Now Mr. Testa's death. How much did you

2 inherit?

3 A. About eight hundred thousand dollars.

4 Q. The day before Mr. Testa died, you had a

5 conversation about your coming down to Florida to be

6 with him. Is that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. You didn't go down to Florida, did you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. If you had gone down to Florida, you might

11 very well have been in the same position that Mr. Testa

12 was when he was blown up. Is that right?

13 A. It may have happened, yes.

14 Q. And you wouldn't have inherited the eight

15 hundred thousand dollars under those circumstances,

16 would you?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. So that you have a telephone conversation with

19 him where you're suppose to go down. You don't go down.

20 The next day he's blown up and you inherit eight hundred

21 thousand dollars. Is that a fair chronology?

22 A. That's a fair chronology, yes, sir.

23 Q. Using your reasoning about being in places and

24 knowing people, do you think a reasonable person might

25 begin to think that you had something to do with

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Mr. Testa's death?

2 A. I'm not really concerned what they think.

3 Q. All right. No let's go to the second reason,

4 your three-year-old son. And in that respect, sir, I

5 offer my sympathies.

6 Mr. Bastone never came to see him, and that

7 was one of the reasons why you're testifying here. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. No, it's a lot more than that. I mean, it's a

10 lot more than he never came to see him.

11 Q. Well he never did anything with respect to --

12 A. Anything, zero. That's more like it.

13 Q. And Mr. Bastone --

14 A. Was his godfather.

15 Q. For what period of time did Mr. Bastone not do

16 anything for him? I mean, when did that begin?

17 A. When I came to prison.

18 Q. So 1987?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Didn't Mr. Bastone go to prison, according to

21 what I can see was GEB 20 and 21, sometime after 1986?

22 A. No. He was given home confinement for one

23 year. He never went to prison.

24 Q. I see. When did you decide that Mr. Bastone's

25 failure to do anything for your son was a reason for you

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 to give this testimony?

2 A. You know, if I may elaborate a little bit.

3 Mr. Bastone's -- this is only a part of a reason, sort

4 of a catharsis, so to speak. And you have to

5 understand, I didn't seek out LIUNA or any of these

6 people and say I want to talk, I want to give you a

7 statement.

8 I was sought out by their investigators who

9 found me through whatever course they found me. I

10 didn't raise my hand, I didn't say I want to testify.

11 They found me, asked me questions and I told them the

12 truth.

13 Q. All I know is what you've testified to here,

14 and you said there were three reasons and I'm on the

15 second reason.

16 When did it occur to you that Mr. Bastone's

17 not doing anything for your son that you should testify

18 for LIUNA in these matters?

19 A. You can say that it was just like a consensus

20 that I made when I asked myself the question why am I

21 doing this.

22 Q. Now let's go to the third reason. Sometime in

23 1987 O'Rourke and Pecoraro told you of overhearing a

24 death threat about you. Is that right?

25 A. That's correct.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Did they play the wire intercept for you?

2 A. Not at that time.

3 Q. This was at the time when you were being

4 arraigned in 1987. Is that correct?

5 A. It was when I was arraigned. Several days

6 later.

7 Q. You believed then that the people who you were

8 working with had now turned on you. Is that right?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. You continued to work for them in 1987, didn't

11 you?

12 A. I went to jail several months later.

13 Q. Yeah. But you continued all the way up until

14 the day before you went to jail and had your bond

15 revoked, you say you brought thirty-five thousand

16 dollars to Pat Marcy. Is that correct?

17 A. That morning.

18 Q. Right. According to GEB Attorney Exhibit 179,

19 on April 5, 1987, you went to Pat Marcy's home. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Now using April 5, 1987, had you learned at

23 that time that there was a death threat?

24 A. No. I learned in May.

25 Q. After learning, you made one last trip for

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Pat Marcy. Is that right?

2 A. No. Many other trips during that period of

3 time.

4 Q. Now you're one of the creeps you described,

5 aren't you?

6 A. Yeah, I am. You're right.

7 Q. In your statement about Mr. Testa's death, you

8 lied -- is that correct? -- the one in the newspaper.

9 A. You could say that, yes.

10 Q. I believe you said something about you said

11 you said it, and you said what I thought was necessary

12 to say.

13 A. That's true.

14 Q. That's been the story of your life. You say

15 what is necessary to say, don't you?

16 A. It's your opinion.

17 Q. I'm asking you.

18 A. It's your opinion. I'm telling you.

19 Q. I'm asking you: During the course of your

20 life, from the time you were a patrolman didn't you say

21 what you thought was necessary to do for yourself?

22 A. That's your opinion.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: He's just asking you yes

24 or no.


E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. From the time you became a patrolman in

2 Willow Springs, you began accepting bribes. Is that

3 right?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. You've been corrupt since from the day you

6 became a patrolman until the day you went into the

7 federal penitentiary. Is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. One of the reasons you went to the federal

10 penitentiary involved the killing of Diane Masters. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. You were convicted of having covered up the

14 killing by having her body in a Cadillac dumped into a

15 canal. Is that correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Did you, in fact, dump Diane Master's body and

18 car in the canal?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. How much did you get paid to do that?

21 A. Eight thousand dollars.

22 Q. At the trial, did you plead guilty or not

23 guilty concerning that charge?

24 A. I wasn't charged like that. I was charged in

25 a racketeering conspiracy. That was a predicate act. I

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 plead not guilty to the entire indictment.

2 Q. Did you testify?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now one of the other convictions was for

5 obstruction of justice in falsifying a record. Isn't

6 that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. You falsified a Hertz rental receipt. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. That was in order to have an albi with respect

12 to an extortion charge. Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. So you did what you had to do to try and save

15 yourself from an extortion charge.

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Have you ever given statements or any written

18 statements concerning the matters you testified to here

19 to any federal official?

20 A. Rephrase that again. Have I what?

21 Q. Given any written statements. Was there 302s

22 or any notes that a federal official might have taken of

23 any matter that you've give?

24 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me --

25 MR. CARMELL: Let me back up. Let me rephrase

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 it. Okay.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: He doesn't write the 302s,

3 obviously.

4 Let me interpose another comment as well. I'm

5 not sure how much we're at liberty to disclose -- I

6 don't know what he's provided to the FBI or the

7 government, but I'm not sure we're at liberty to

8 disclose what he has or has not. In other words, he's

9 never provided testimony, and he testified to that.

10 MR. CARMELL: Well I think we may have covered

11 that one. He said he attempted once to be debriefed and

12 that was declined.

13 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) So I'm taking from that,

14 Mr. Corbitt, that that's the only time that you had any

15 discussions with federal officials concerning organized

16 crime. Is that a fair statement?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Have you had them since that time?

19 MR. BOSTWICK: I would interpose an objection,

20 and what I would say on this is, I have not discussed

21 with the FBI what he has or hasn't done and when he's

22 done it. I don't know if it's of importance to them

23 whether he disclose it.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well let's put it this

25 way: He can answer the question yes or no.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 MR. BOSTWICK: Okay. He's not asking for the

2 details then.


4 MR. CARMELL: I didn't ask him for the

5 details, in other words.


7 Q. When was the first time?

8 A. I believe in early '88.

9 Q. You're familiar with the El Ruken litigation

10 in the district court?

11 A. I sure am.

12 Q. And you testified in federal court concerning

13 favor, dope, everything else that was being used in the

14 NCC involving the El Ruken. Is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. During that time the government prosecutors --

17 can I phrase it this way -- questioned your credibility

18 about it on the stand?

19 A. No. They never questioned my credibility on

20 the stand. Like refer to somebody. Give me some for

21 instances.

22 Q. Well did Scorza -- did Scorza testify that --

23 was there a question as to whether some of the matters

24 that you testified to had first been raised when you

25 testified, such as talking to Mr. Hogan? That you had

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 never given any statement about Mr. Hogan's testimony --

2 talking to Mr. Hogan before?

3 A. That's not true.

4 Q. Do you remember that being raised on the

5 stand?

6 A. I remember it being raised, but not by Scorza.

7 I remember it being raised by another attorney, but it

8 later was -- it was resolved.

9 Q. Your being chief of police ended sometime in

10 1981. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. When did you first begin being a money

13 courier?

14 A. Nineteen -- mid 1970s, maybe 1973, 1974.

15 Q. And when did you first begin making deliveries

16 of what you considered to be money to Pat Marcy?

17 A. The late 1970s.

18 Q. That's while you were chief of police?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. So during the day when you were

21 Chief of Police of Willow Springs, you were actually not

22 there but out delivering money.

23 A. Absolutely.

24 Q. You would be down at Counselor's Row during

25 that period of time.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. How many days a week?

3 A. Three or four days a week.

4 Q. What hours were you there?

5 A. I'd get there -- he got there early in the

6 morning around 6:30 or 7:00. I'd get there at ten, have

7 breakfast, stay an hour or so. If I had any other

8 business to do downtown, I'd do it and then go back.

9 Q. Was that the regular routine, the hours?

10 A. Yeah, approximately the regular routine. If

11 there was something special or something, he'd call me

12 or I'd call him and I'd come into the city.

13 Q. Generally, it was between six a. m. and what

14 time?

15 A. Eleven I'd be gone.

16 Q. Now when you were in Counselor's Row, you

17 would be sitting at what's been marked in the exhibit --

18 where is that exhibit. It's somewhere. I can locate

19 it. Okay.

20 You'd be sitting -- this is GEB Attorney

21 Exhibit 168B. The Pat Marcy booth is the one that's

22 been marked as Number 1. Is that correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. You would come to that booth. Would you sit

25 in the booth?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Sometimes. If it was full -- there was only,

2 like, four chairs there -- I would sit over here

3 (indicating) and wait until it was open.

4 Q. And telephone calls would be placed by

5 Mr. Marcy from the phone at the booth. Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Would he make a lot of telephone calls?

8 A. Yes, he would, and receive a lot.

9 Q. Were the four seats usually always taken?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you always know who the people were who

12 were there?

13 A. A lot of occasions I did, yes.

14 Q. Did you have occasions when you didn't know

15 who was there?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. When somebody wasn't there, you would go to

18 what you have indicated as another booth. Can you point

19 to which one of the booths it was?

20 A. It was booth -- these booths were back

21 further. They weren't right here (indicating).

22 Q. I understand that. We'll get to that, sir.

23 A. Say this booth right here (indicating), which

24 was, like, across from the -- I mean, this table right

25 here, which was across from the second booth.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. So what we're looking at -- so it will show --

2 is we have a booth, then we have one table, two tables,

3 three tables, that are closest to the wall that says

4 doorway to elevators.

5 A. That's correct.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Right. It says booth

7 Number 1, and then right adjacent to that --

8 THE WITNESS: These tables aren't there

9 (indicating). This would be the first table

10 (indicating).

11 MR. CARMELL: Right.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Those tables that

13 are there on the illustration are not really there.

14 According, to your testimony, the tables don't start --

15 THE WITNESS: I moved them. They should be

16 back further.


18 THE WITNESS: They're up to close to this area

19 here (indicating). There's a walk-through here, and you

20 couldn't walk through with those tables there.


22 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) How far away would be the

23 table you would sit at from the booth?

24 A. Fifteen feet.

25 Q. The table you sat at, there were other tables

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 in front of you?

2 A. No. No. I sat at the first table.

3 Q. Those would be the first table.

4 A. If it was full, yeah, I'd sit someplace else.

5 But most of the time it was open.

6 Q. Well was that table reserved?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So you would just move there if that was an

9 empty table.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. If the table was full, you would just go to

12 some other table.

13 A. Yeah, I'd go to another table or a booth

14 across the way or something.

15 Q. And you would sit by yourself.

16 A. No. I usually had people with me or somebody

17 with me or -- sometimes I was by myself but not always.

18 Q. If you had other people with you, what would

19 you do with them while you were waiting?

20 A. Just they'd sit in a booth or they'd sit at

21 the table until I got to see him.

22 Q. If you were sitting with people waiting, you

23 would talk to them?

24 A. Yeah, sure.

25 Q. Socialize with them?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. I'd talk to them, yeah.

2 Q. Using this first table as being the first

3 table --

4 A. Okay. All right.

5 Q. -- there are four chairs. Where would you

6 sit?

7 A. You know, at different chairs. I didn't go

8 and sit in the same chair every time. I mean, I -- a

9 different chair, you know, I don't think -- I probably

10 would sit at one of these two chairs (indicating) to see

11 when he was not busy any more so I could get done and

12 leave.

13 Q. But if somebody else was sitting in those two

14 chairs, you had not problem sitting in the chairs --

15 A. No.

16 Q. -- with your back to booth.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Between the first table and the booth, there

19 was a walkway where customers walked, waiters walked,

20 service people walked. Is that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. When you say you would wait for -- or wait to

23 go to the booth, what would you wait, until it was

24 empty?

25 A. I waited until he motioned me, whatever. If

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 he motioned me, sometimes he would motion me out into

2 the hallway, sometimes he would motion me upstairs. I

3 would wait until he gave me a signal that it was okay

4 and then I would come over.

5 Q. But whatever business you had with Pat Marcy

6 -- and let me try and break it down, sir -- you would

7 discuss it sometimes upstairs in the ward office.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. You would discuss it sometimes with him in the

10 hallway.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And you would discuss it sometimes at the

13 booth.

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. According to your testimony, with Gus Alex,

16 Pat Marcy would call Gus Alex to let him know that the

17 money was there. Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Pat Marcy would call from the booth phone?

20 A. Occasionally.

21 Q. And sometimes he called in your presence?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did he call in the presence of anyone else?

24 A. I can't recall.

25 Q. And then Gus Alex would come down, you'd meet

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 him in the parking garage and give him his money.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Now with respect to the restaurant called

4 Meo's, what period of time -- I know you've testified to

5 it, but I didn't catch it. What period were you talking

6 about where the Wednesday dinners would occur in the

7 private room?

8 A. Early seventies to the early eighties. '73

9 to, like, '80, '81 -- '80.

10 Q. And on occasion you saw Ernest Kumerow there?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. At that time you knew or learned that he was

13 Tony Accardo's son-in-law?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And you also saw Ernie Kumerow with

16 Vince Solano?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And where did you see Ernie Kumerow with

19 Vince Solano?

20 A. Downtown at his son's restaurant, Billy's I

21 believe, and I believe at Harry's Cafe, which was also

22 on Rush Street, and I believe Faces.

23 Q. At that time, Vince Solano had some sort of

24 position with the Laborers' Union. Is that right?

25 A. I believe so.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Did you know whether Ernie Kumerow had a

2 position with the Laborers' Union at that time?

3 A. I believe -- I knew he was a union official.

4 I don't think I know what union.

5 Q. And you saw Ernest Kumerow with John Serpico?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where did you see Ernie Kumerow with

8 John Serpico?

9 A. Counselor's Row with Pat Marcy on -- also on

10 Rush Street. Also at another restaurant in Chicago,

11 once I saw him, called Maxim's, also on LaSalle Street.

12 Q. Did you know at that time that John Serpico

13 had an affiliation with the Laborers' Union?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. When you saw Ernie Kumerow with Pat Marcy, at

16 Counselor's Row was one of the places?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Were you present when any conversation between

19 the two?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. You just saw them there together.

22 A. Yes, together.

23 Q. To your knowledge -- let me qualify your

24 knowledge. To your understanding, did Pat Marcy have

25 anything to do with obtaining work with the city for

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 various workers?

2 A. I believe he did. I believe he did.

3 Q. Pat Marcy had an affiliation with what was

4 called the First Ward Organization. Is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And that was the Democratic -- Harvey's First

7 Ward.

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. It was your understanding that ward

10 committeemen and aldermen had positions whereby they

11 could influence obtaining jobs for people with the

12 City of Chicago as workers?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. That was called the patronage system.

15 A. Absolutely.

16 Q. When did you first see Bruno Caruso at

17 Counselor's Row?

18 A. Sometime in the mid seventies.

19 Q. Do you have any diary or notebook that would

20 have refreshed your recollection that it occurred over

21 twenty years ago?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you know Bruno Caruso personally?

24 A. No. I knew who he was. I didn't know him

25 personally.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. When you saw him at Counselor's Row in 19 --

2 as you say, in 1973, did you know what position he had,

3 if any, with the Laborers' Union?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you know whether he worked for the

6 City of Chicago?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. Did you know what his job was?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. When was the last time that you had seen

11 Bruno Caruso at Counselor's Row?

12 A. I can't recall that. It would have been

13 sometime in the late seventies, early eighties. No. It

14 would have probably -- let's see. No. I think it would

15 have been sometime in the early eighties.

16 Q. You say you saw Bruno Caruso because he hung

17 around Rush Street.

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Rush Street was at that time a very social

20 area.

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And there was nothing necessarily sinister

23 about somebody hanging around Rush Street.

24 A. No. No.

25 Q. Now you say you saw him, Bruno Caruso, with

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Angelo LaPietra. Is that right?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. You said you saw him at Faces.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was Mr. Caruso with besides

6 Angelo LaPietra?

7 A. I can't recall who else was with him.

8 Q. What time of the day or night was it?

9 A. It was about eleven or twelve o'clock at

10 night. I know it was after dark. About eleven o'clock.

11 Q. Did you go over and speak to him?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. Where were they sitting?

14 A. Most of the time they sit at the bar. They

15 had a -- there was an area at the bar where all the guys

16 hung out. It was on the corner of the bar. There was

17 booths all around it, but most of the guys hung around

18 by the bar.

19 Q. I want to ask you: Could you be confusing

20 Bruno Caruso with Frank Caruso?

21 A. No, absolutely not.

22 Q. Did you see Frank Caruso at Faces?

23 A. I also saw Frank Caruso there also.

24 Q. You saw Bruno Caruso in an area of the bar

25 where a group hung out. Is that right?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Yes, where a lot of guys hung out. A lot guys

2 stayed there and talked and --

3 Q. So it wasn't the one-on-one table between

4 Angelo LaPietra and Bruno Caruso.

5 A. No. No.

6 Q. There was a group of guys there.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. Did you know all the guys?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. Who told you that the person that you saw at

11 Counselor's Row was Bruno Caruso?

12 A. I knew Bruno Caruso from being introduced to

13 him, from being told who he was on other occasions at

14 other locations.

15 Q. When did you first personally meet

16 Bruno Caruso?

17 A. Personally meet, like shake hands and --

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. I don't believe that ever took place. I

20 believe somebody pointed him out, said who he was,

21 that's Bruno Caruso, that's -- I don't believe that ever

22 happened.

23 Q. You also testified that you saw Bruno Caruso

24 with Angelo LaPietra at Sweetwater's.

25 A. That's correct.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Under what circumstances would that have been?

2 A. They were sitting at table with a couple of

3 other guys. I came in there with a couple of people.

4 They were sitting at a window table. I sat several

5 tables away, recognized him. I just recall recognizing

6 him in there.

7 Q. Did you recognize who the other persons were?

8 A. No. No.

9 Q. When did you see Bruno Caruso with Al Pilotto?

10 A. Sometime in the early eighties, '81 or '82.

11 Q. Where did you see them?

12 A. It was a golf outing, someplace out south in

13 the Heights. I can't remember the name of the golf

14 course. It was a political golf outing and I saw them

15 both there. After the golf game, everybody came in for

16 dinner, whatever, and he was inside with them.

17 Q. Inside with him in what sense?

18 A. Inside one of the tents or in one of the areas

19 where they were eating. They were sitting together

20 eating and talking.

21 Q. Were there other people at that table?

22 A. Yes, there was.

23 Q. It was a large political outing, golf outing?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where did you see Bruno Caruso with

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Vince Solano?

2 A. I believe in the Rush Street area.

3 Q. Under what circumstances?

4 A. In one of the clubs.

5 Q. Do you remember the name of the club?

6 A. It could have been Billy's or it could have

7 been Adolph's. It was a restaurant, not a lounge.

8 Q. Who was he with? I mean, Bruno Caruso was

9 with Vince Solano and --

10 A. They were together. There was only -- I think

11 Vince Solano's son might have been at the table also.

12 Q. You've already testified concerning that you

13 understood that Vince Solano had a position with the

14 Laborers' Union. Let me ask you about Al Pilotto. Was

15 it your understanding that Al Pilotto had a position

16 with the Laborers' Union?

17 A. I knew he was a union official. I didn't know

18 what union.

19 Q. Now you said that while you were at

20 Counselor's Row you saw Bruno Caruso on more than one

21 occasion give Pat Marcy an envelope. Is that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Did he hand him the envelope across the table?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How did he do it?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. He slid it across the table, and Mr. Marcy

2 reached out and grabbed it and slid it off the table and

3 into his pocket.

4 Q. And where were you sitting?

5 A. I believe at this first table, and I believe

6 that Bruno was sitting here and Pat Marcy was sitting

7 there (indicating).

8 Q. So you were sitting at the first table. Where

9 at the first table?

10 A. Right here, facing their table (indicating).

11 Q. You say you're facing their table. Okay. So

12 by looking at it, it would be the chair that is the

13 farthest from the wall. Is that correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Facing the booth.

16 A. Correct.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Facing their booth?

18 MR. CARMELL: Facing their booth.

19 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) Who else was at the table?

20 A. They were there together alone.

21 Q. No, no, no.

22 A. At my table?

23 Q. Yeah, your table.

24 A. I don't believe anybody was there.

25 Q. They were -- what was the distance between

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 your chair and where Mr. Caruso was seated?

2 A. Maybe fifteen feet, twenty feet.

3 Q. You had to look across this passageway where

4 people were coming and traffic was going back and forth.

5 Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. You saw, according to your testimony, Caruso

8 slide an envelope across the table.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. You saw Marcy take that envelope and put it in

11 his pocket.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Anybody sitting in that room could have seen

14 the same thing.

15 A. That's not true.

16 Q. Well anybody sitting in your position could

17 have seen the same thing. Right?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Anybody standing and walking by the passageway

20 could have seen the same thing. Right?

21 A. Yeah, but not anybody in the room. You said

22 anybody in the room could have seen it.

23 Q. Well anybody at the table next to you could

24 have seen that.

25 A. Possibly.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Anybody in the booth next to you could have

2 seen that.

3 A. It possible. It's possible.

4 Q. Yeah. So in open view, Caruso slides an

5 envelope across the table. Is that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. How many times did you see this happen?

8 A. Several occasions. Two.

9 Q. Two occasions. Okay. You've testified as to

10 one, sir.

11 Now on the other occasion, where were you?

12 A. I think I was at the same booth -- I mean, the

13 same table.

14 Q. The same table so the same scenario?

15 A. There may have been somebody else at the table

16 that time. I don't recall.

17 Q. Where was that person sitting?

18 A. Probably on this end over here (indicating).

19 Q. And we're talking about at the Booth Number 1,

20 the Marcy booth.

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. So on the second occasion -- on another

23 occasion there may have been another person at the Marcy

24 table.

25 A. That's correct.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Do you know who that person might have been?

2 A. No, I don't recall.

3 Q. When in terms of years did you see the first

4 envelope go across the table?

5 A. Sometime in the mid seventies.

6 Q. How about the second time?

7 A. Sometime shortly thereafter, maybe '77, '78.

8 Q. Now how many times did you see -- well let me

9 strike that.

10 You saw Bruno Caruso and the envelope issue

11 twice that you recall. Is that right?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. How many times in total did you see

14 Bruno Caruso at Counselor's Row?

15 A. Maybe six, seven times total.

16 Q. Was he always at the Marcy booth?

17 A. Yes, he was.

18 Q. At any time were you at the Marcy booth when

19 he was there?

20 A. No. No.

21 Q. Were there times when Mr. Caruso was there

22 with others at the Marcy booth?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Did you recognize any of the other persons?

25 A. Several of the occasions John D'Arco was

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 there. But other than that, there was -- occasionally

2 Barney Stone, the Alderman, was there. Occasionally

3 Burton Natarus was there, the other alderman.

4 Q. For those of those who are not into Chicago

5 politicians, that was John D'Arco, Senior?

6 A. Senior.

7 Q. And John D'Arco, Senior, was the head of the

8 First Ward Organization.

9 A. Committeeman.

10 Q. Committeeman. Ward committeeman.

11 A. Former alderman.

12 Q. Bernard Stone was an Alderman of the 50th

13 Ward, I think, in Chicago.

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Burton Natarus was an alderman of one of the

16 wards of the City of Chicago.

17 A. 43rd, I think. I'm not sure.

18 Q. Was there anyone else that you recall knowing

19 who was there at the booth when Bruno Caruso was

20 there?

21 A. No, not that I can recall.

22 Q. When you would sit with Pat Marcy, who else

23 would sit with you an Mr. Marcy?

24 A. Fred Roti, Ernest Stone, Tony Tisce.

25 Q. Let's stop for a minute. Who was Tony Tisce?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. I think he still is Sam Giancanna's

2 son-in-law. He'a married to Bonnie Lee Giancanna. He's

3 a former -- he's an attorney.

4 I mean, I can go on and on. A bunch of

5 different people run through there. If you want me to

6 keep going, I mean --

7 Q. Did you discuss the business that you had with

8 Mr. Marcy with these people around?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. Well when you were there, what would be talked

11 about?

12 A. Politics, the weather, sports.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: Excuse me. Are you talking

14 about while you're at the booth with these other people?


16 THE HEARING OFFICER: These other people.

17 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) Fred Roti you're talking

18 about. He was the Alderman from the First Ward, wasn't

19 he?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Now you mentioned John Monteleone. John

22 Monteleone went to jail, didn't he?

23 A. I'm not sure. He may have, but I'm not sure

24 if he did. I don't think he's in jail now. I don't

25 think he was in jail when I came in. I know he wasn't.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. You say you saw Bruno Caruso with

2 John Monteleone in the late sixties or early seventies.

3 Is that right?

4 A. Early seventies, maybe the late sixties. But

5 early seventies and late seventies also.

6 Q. You saw him at Harry's Cafe on Rush Street.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. What is it that makes you remember over thirty

9 years ago that Bruno Caruso was at Harry's Cafe on

10 Rush Street?

11 A. Because I was doing business with one of

12 Johnny Monteleone's people on the street, and I went

13 over and had an discussion with him in regards to that

14 business transaction and I knew that Bruno was with

15 them. They were sitting together. I believe there were

16 several people with them and they were sitting together

17 thirty years ago.

18 Q. You had transactions with Mr. Monteleone on

19 more than one time, didn't you?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Over what period of time did you have your

22 transactions with him?

23 A. Early seventies until the early eighties.

24 Q. How many times would you have a transaction

25 with him?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. A hundred. Transactions or --

2 Q. Transactions.

3 A. A hundred maybe.

4 Q. How many at Harry's Cafe?

5 A. One.

6 Q. That one time was the one time you recall

7 Bruno Caruso being there.

8 A. Was with him.

9 Q. He was with him and other people were with

10 him.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Did you know who the other people were?

13 A. I don't recall. I believe one of them was an

14 attorney. I'm trying to think right now. I can't

15 remember his name, but I think one of them is an

16 attorney.

17 Q. To your knowledge, did John Monteleone have

18 any business or profession?

19 A. You mean business or --

20 Q. Yeah, like Testa did. Testa had a business.

21 A. You mean like -- are you talking legitimate

22 business or business?

23 Q. Let's talk about legitimate business.

24 A. No, I don't know if he had a legitimate

25 business.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. You don't know.

2 A. I never did any legitimate business with him.

3 Q. You don't know if -- you don't know whether he

4 did or did not.

5 A. No, do not.

6 Q. When was the first time that anybody from

7 LIUNA came to see you?

8 A. The first time?

9 Q. Yes, sir

10 A. Maybe eight or ten months ago, maybe longer.

11 I'd say about ten months ago.

12 Q. Can you fix it any closer than that?

13 A. I could if I wasn't here. I have it in marked

14 down, but I can't --

15 Q. All right.

16 A. I can't do it now.

17 Q. So in order for you to recall whether it was

18 ten or -- ten months ago or less, you'd have to look at

19 your notes.

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Do you remember what month it was?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you remember the season of the year?

24 A. No. There's no season down here. It was

25 warm.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Warm, warmer or hot.

2 A. It was warm.

3 MR. BOSTWICK: Those are the three seasons?

4 THE WITNESS: That's it. That's it. I don't

5 remember the season.

6 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) Who did you speak to that

7 first time?

8 A. With Jack O'Rourke.

9 Q. That's the same Jack O'Rourke who had told you

10 in '87 that you were the subject of a death threat.

11 Right?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. What did Jack O'Rourke tell you? Well excuse

14 me. Let me back up, sir.

15 Did you know that Jack O'Rourke was coming to

16 see you?

17 A. Yes, of course.

18 Q. How did you learn?

19 A. I believe they contacted the prison and asked

20 approval to come in and see me, because you can't come

21 and see me unless you get approval. And I believe I

22 signed off on an approval to see him.

23 Q. Did you discuss that matter with your FBI case

24 handler?

25 A. I don't understand what you're talking about.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 Q. Well did the FBI tell you that Jack O'Rourke

2 was coming?

3 A. On his first visit?

4 Q. Yeah.

5 A. I don't believe so. I don't believe so.

6 Q. You learned that a John O'Rourke wanted to

7 come and see you. Correct?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Did you learn at the time that -- who

10 John O'Rourke was?

11 A. I already knew who John O'Rourke was.

12 Q. You knew him as an FBI agent.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did you know then that he was no longer with

15 the FBI?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. How did you find that out?

18 A. I heard that he retired.

19 Q. When you heard that John O'Rourke wanted to

20 see you, you gave permission for John O'Rourke to see

21 you?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. What did John O'Rourke tell you?

24 A. When he saw me?

25 Q. Yes, sir.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. He told me that he was working for -- no. He

2 told that he was doing an investigation of a union and

3 would I be able to help in any way as far as if I had

4 any knowledge of any people.

5 Then he proceeded to give me a whole mired of

6 people, asked if I knew them, if I didn't know them,

7 what I knew about them, so forth and so on. Some people

8 I knew; some people I didn't know.

9 Q. Did he show you pictures?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did some of these pictures refresh your

12 recollection?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did Mr. O'Rourke refresh your recollection as

15 to who certain people were?

16 A. No. You mean as to who the people were in the

17 pictures?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did Mr. O'Rourke ask you specifically certain

21 names, such as -- let me ask you this: Did he ask you

22 specifically whether you knew Bruno Caruso?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he ask you specifically whether you knew

25 Frank Caruso?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did he ask you specifically whether you knew

3 Ernest Kumerow?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he ask you whether you knew Vince Solano?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And Al Pilotto?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was the next time that you -- and how

10 long did that first meeting take?

11 A. A couple hours.

12 Q. When was it that you first were informed that

13 your cooperation would be presented to the sentencing

14 judge with respect to shortening your sentence?

15 A. I think several months ago I had that

16 conversation with Mr. Dwight Bostwick after there had

17 been several trips down here.

18 MR. BOSTWICK: For the record, what was

19 testified on direct was that he would consider doing

20 that, not that he would.

21 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) How many times did you see

22 Mr. O'Rourke?

23 A. Approximately four times over the period of

24 this -- maybe four times.

25 Q. Did Mr. O'Rourke take notes of his

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 conversations with you?

2 A. I believe he did.

3 Q. Did he show you the notes?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Has he discussed his notes with you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Over what period of time did -- the total

8 number of hours that you spent with Mr. O'Rourke?

9 A. Maybe twelve, fourteen hours, maybe sixteen.

10 At the most, it would be sixteen hours total.

11 Q. In order to find out about the pecking order

12 of organized crime, you had to be in there. Is that

13 right?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. As you said right from the beginning, you

16 would not know who was -- quote -- a made member or an

17 associate even though you spent years and years and

18 years with organized crime people. Is that right?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Is it fair to say that it was a very secretive

21 group?

22 A. Attempted to be, yes.

23 Q. Attempted to be. Okay. They talk a lot, but

24 they try to talk a lot only with people they trusted.

25 Is that correct?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. You knew that Al Pilotto was in organized

3 crime because you had dealings with him. Is that right?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Is there any other basis upon which you knew

6 that Al Pilotto was in organized crime?

7 A. Only in who he associated with and who he was

8 around.

9 Q. In order to be around them, you had to be, if

10 not part of organized crime, you at least had to be

11 trusted. Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. An outsider wouldn't be in that position,

14 would he?

15 A. No. No.

16 Q. And the same would be true of all of these

17 people that we have mentioned. I'm talking about the

18 -- Sam Giancanna. Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. The same would be true of Vince Solano. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. The same would be true of Pat Marcy?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. The same would be true of Jimmy Caporale?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 A. I mean, what would be true?

2 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) You saw him, as I

3 understand, pass -- give an envelope to or on behalf of

4 Tony Accardo at Meo's Restaurant.

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. In order to get in there, you had to be very

7 trusted.

8 A. That's true.

9 Q. So an outsider would not have known that.

10 A. That's true.

11 Q. With respect to Ernie Kumerow, and outsider

12 could know that he was Tony Accardo's son-in-law. That

13 was no secret. Right?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. You said that Pat Marcy was paranoid. That

16 means that he -- do I understand correctly, that he was

17 worried, very worried, about the government overhearing

18 anything that he might be doing that's illegal.

19 A. I would say that's a fair statement.

20 Q. He had his phones swept. Correct?

21 A. (Indicating affirmatively).

22 Q. You're nodding. That doesn't --

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Okay. And he was very, very careful about

25 anything that he feared would be subject to the

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 government seeing or hearing. Is that right?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. You brought money to Pat Marcy on a number of

4 occasions. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Were those in packages?

7 A. Sometimes in packages, sometimes in

8 briefcases, sometimes in bags, sometimes in boxes.

9 Q. The briefcases is where you would exchange

10 briefcases with him.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. If Mr. Marcy was paranoid, he would not make

13 the exchanges of the briefcases at the booth, he would

14 go out into the hall. Is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Have you collected your inheritance from

17 Mr. Testa?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. Do you know the date of the will?

20 A. When it was read?

21 Q. No. The date that it was made.

22 A. The date it was made? No.

23 MR. CARMELL: May I have just a minute.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you want to just take

25 a break or something?

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 MR. CARMELL: Yeah. That would be better.

2 (Recess from 1:30 p. m. to 1:40 p. m.)



5 Q. Mr. Corbitt, you testified about a number of

6 dates during your testimony from the sixties through

7 1987. Unless you've given us a specific day or date,

8 are these dates approximations?

9 A. They're all approximations.

10 Q. When you give generalized testimony, for

11 instance, that something happened in the late seventies,

12 it's possible that it could have happened in the early

13 eighties as opposed to the late seventies an vice versa?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Now you testified that you saw

16 Angelo LaPietra with Bruno Caruso and Frank Caruso at

17 various times. Did you know whether Angelo LaPietra

18 held any position in organized crime?

19 A. I knew that he was a boss of a crew, as you

20 call it, the media calls it, whatever, and as I know it.

21 Salvatore Bastone, who was with me for twenty -- over

22 twenty-some years, was part of his operation. At the

23 time -- some of the time that he was with me, this was

24 his boss, this was the guy he would go to.

25 Other people that I was familiar with from my

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 area, Wayne Bock, Sammy Bills, different guys, were all

2 under the 26th Street crew, as you put it, and this guy

3 was the boss. This guy was the street level boss of

4 that crew. I knew that from experiencing things, being

5 involved with him at social gatherings and being

6 involved with him in what I was doing on the street.

7 Q. Mr. Carmell asked you about a number of the

8 people that you interacted with at Counselor's Row. A

9 number of them were alderman. Alderman John D'Arco,

10 Senior, was he ever indicted, to your knowledge?

11 A. I believe he was. But he wasn't an alderman

12 when I knew him. He was a committeeman.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. He was -- he may have been. I'm not sure. I

15 believe he was indicted at some point.

16 Q. How about Fred Roti?

17 A. Yes, he was.

18 Q. Was indicted?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. How about Pat Marcy, to your knowledge?

21 A. No. Pat Marcy I don't believe was ever

22 indicted.

23 Q. How about Mr. DeLeo?

24 MR. CARMELL: I don't remember talking about

25 DeLeo at Counselor's Row.

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 MR. BOSTWICK: Oh, I'm sorry.

2 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Did you ever see Mr. DeLeo

3 at Counselor's Row on these occasions?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Do you know if he was ever indicted?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. Mr. Carmell also asked you some questions

8 about Jack O'Rourke and his initial interviews with you.

9 Did Mr. O'Rourke mislead you in any way that he was

10 still in the FBI?

11 A. No, he didn't.

12 Q. What did he tell you about who he was working

13 for and what he was doing?

14 A. He told me that he was involved in a private

15 security investigations, Bureau of Business, and they

16 were working for the union.

17 Q. Was there ever any confusion in your mind that

18 he was in the FBI?

19 A. No.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't have any further

21 questions.

22 MR. CARMELL: I just have really one.



25 Q. When you say your dates are approximation,

E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462


1 what is the span of error? That is, could it be five

2 years? Ten year?

3 A. No. I would say a year, maybe a

4 year-and-a-half. A couple of years is all it could be.

5 I would say maybe a year-and-a-half to two years

6 maximum.

7 MR. CARMELL: That's it.

8 MR. BOSTWICK: I think we're done with that.

9 (Deposition concluded at 2:00 p. m.)

















E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462




3 I, ELIZABETH GOTCH, Shorthand Reporter,

Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large:


DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing

5 deposition, pages 1 through ______, inclusive, was

taken before me at the time and place stated therein;

6 that I reported said examination and testimony

stenographically, and that the transcript of the

7 deposition constitutes a true and correct transcript of

the shorthand report of said deposition.


I CERTIFY that I am neither related to, nor

9 employed by, any counsel or party to the cause pending,

nor interested in the event thereof.


IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto affixed

11 my hand this 26th day of August, 1997, in Tampa,

Hillsborough County, Florida.


13 _____________________________


14 Shorthand Reporter












E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462




3 I, the undersigned authority, certify that

MICHAEL CORBITT, personally appeared before me and

4 was duly sworn.

5 WITNESS, my hand and official seal this

26th day of August, 1997, in Tampa, Hillsborough County,

6 Florida.




Shorthand Reporter


















E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462

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