5 IN RE: )





10 July 17, 1997

11 9:06 a.m.



14 The hearing resumed pursuant to

15 adjournment at the Midland Hotel, 172 West Adams

16 Street, Chicago, Illinois.



19 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.









3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,

4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:



7 appeared on behalf of the GEB

8 Attorney;



11 LTD.,

12 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,

13 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:




17 appeared on behalf of the Chicago

18 District Council of Laborers;








1 PRESENT: (Continued)


3 (111 West Washington, Suite 1700,

4 Chicago, Illinois 60602), by:


6 appeared on behalf of

7 John A. Matassa, Jr.



















1 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. O'Rourke, I believe you

2 were on the stand. Mr. O'Rourke, I believe you

3 were under oath yesterday.

4 Is he still under oath today, or do

5 you want to --

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: No, that would be

7 fine. You're still under oath, Mr. O'Rourke.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


10 called as a witness herein, having been

11 previously duly sworn and having testified, was

12 examined and testified further as follows:



15 Q. Good morning, Mr. O'Rourke. In your

16 capacity as an inspector for LIUNA, have you been

17 asked to investigate the connection between the

18 leadership of the Chicago Outfit and the

19 Laborers' District Council in the Chicago

20 vicinity?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Let me refer you to Exhibit 145, and

23 this, as we discussed yesterday, is a graphic

24 representation of information contained in the


1 District Council minutes, the LM2s, that sets

2 forth the positions of the five main official

3 positions of the Chicago District Council over

4 time from 1970 to the present with select

5 officials, field representatives or delegates

6 listed below.

7 Are you familiar with that chart?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Okay. We're going to refer to that

10 during the remainder of your testimony.

11 Mr. O'Rourke, as an FBI agent or in

12 your capacity as an inspector for LIUNA, have you

13 spoken to witnesses and sources about individuals

14 listed on this chart?

15 A. Yes, sir, I have.

16 Q. Did you speak to Rich Mara?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And he is the 26th Street Crew member

19 we spoke of yesterday?

20 A. Correct, that's correct.

21 Q. I should say the ex-26th Street Crew

22 member, is that correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. How about Joseph Granata?


1 A. Yes, I interviewed Joseph Granata.

2 Q. Who is Mr. Granata?

3 A. Joe Granata is a member of the Cicero

4 Crew, Joe Ferriola Crew. He was the son of Frank

5 Granata, Sr., who operated the Galewood Funeral

6 Home, was a member of organized crime for many

7 years. He's the brother of Frank Granata, Jr.,

8 also known as Gigi Granata, who is a member of

9 the Elmwood Park Crew of the Chicago outfit. He

10 himself was a long-time member of the Outfit, was

11 a close associate of Harry Aleman, hit man, Butch

12 Petrocelli, Jimmy Inendino, several other

13 well-known members of the Ferriola Crew in the

14 1960s, 1970s, into the 1980s.

15 Q. Did he testify -- Mr. Granata, did he

16 testify in any federal criminal cases?

17 A. He did not testify. His tapes that he

18 made were consensual recordings, were utilized in

19 several cases resulting in convictions, but he

20 did not personally testify, no, sir.

21 Q. Did he provide information regarding

22 organized crime activities and the structure of

23 organized crime to the FBI in the past?

24 A. Yes, he did.


1 Q. Has the FBI ever found that

2 information to be unreliable to your knowledge?

3 A. No, sir.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. O'Rourke, what

5 cases did he testify and if you can remember the

6 names?

7 THE WITNESS: He testified -- Chris Messino,

8 Chris Messino and a cousin were Mob connected

9 drug dealers and he made hand-to-hand purchases

10 of narcotics, that means consensual recordings,

11 and the recordings were played at the trial and

12 they were both convicted.

13 He also was involved in a murder for

14 hire case under the control of the Alcohol,

15 Tobacco and Firearms and he had the consensual

16 recordings and the undercover agent testified at

17 the trial and the individual was also convicted.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't think any of

19 the microphones are live here.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, mine is, but that's

21 probably the least important.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: I am just looking

23 back. We may have some difficulty hearing here.

24 (WHEREUPON, there was a short


1 interruption.)

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. That's fine. Go

3 ahead.


5 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you speak to

6 Mr. Granata about all or some of the individuals

7 listed on the Chicago District Council chart?

8 A. Yes, sir, I did.

9 Q. When did you do that?

10 A. The last conversation was the 14th of

11 July.

12 Q. Of this month?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, I don't want to go into

15 the substance of his conversations with you yet.

16 We'll do that in a minute. Let's keep going

17 through this list.

18 Did you also speak to James LaValley?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Who is he?

21 A. James LaValley was a collector and an

22 enforcer for organized crime. He worked for

23 Leonard Patrick and Mario Ranone, Gus Alex, his

24 partner was a man named Nick Gio. He was


1 indicted after an investigation by the FBI,

2 agreed to cooperate and then provided

3 information, was debriefed extensively and

4 testified in several federal criminal cases.

5 Q. Can you remember the names of any of

6 those cases?

7 A. Yes, sir. He testified in a case

8 involving a James Bollman, a Mob gambling

9 bookmaker, Nick Gio who was convicted of arson

10 for hire and later for murder against Leonard

11 Patrick who also cooperated and Gus Alex, Gussie

12 Alex, a long-time member of organized crime who

13 was convicted in Federal Court and sentenced to

14 17 years in prison.

15 He also testified in the Sam Carlisi

16 trial which 17, approximately 17 people were

17 convicted including Sam Carlisi, the boss of the

18 Mob, and I cannot recall if he testified in the

19 Rocco Infelise case or not. He may have. I am

20 not sure about that.

21 Q. Has he provided information regarding

22 organized -- first of all, were all of those

23 cases that you just mentioned relating to

24 organized criminal activity in the Chicago area?


1 A. Yes, they were.

2 Q. Has Mr. LaValley in addition to his

3 testimony in criminal cases provided information

4 to the FBI regarding organized crime activities

5 and the structure of organized crime in the

6 Chicago area?

7 A. Yes, sir, he has.

8 Q. Has the FBI ever found that

9 information to be unreliable, to your knowledge?

10 A. No, they have not.

11 Q. Did you speak with Mr. LaValley about

12 some or all of the members on this chart?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. When I say members, I mean the

15 individuals listed on the Chicago District

16 Council chart marked Exhibit 145?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. When was the most recent period of

19 time you spoke to Mr. LaValley? You can give me

20 an approximation.

21 A. I believe it was September the 19th,

22 1996.

23 Q. As for Mr. Granata and for

24 Mr. LaValley, did you speak to these individuals


1 on a number of occasions?

2 A. Yes, sir. I debriefed them from the

3 time they cooperated forward until during the

4 trials and then I have recent conversations with

5 them as well. The most recent with Mr. LaValley

6 was September of '96.

7 Q. How about James Basile? Am I

8 pronouncing that correctly?

9 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. James Peter

10 Basile or Basile, also known as Duke Basile.

11 Q. Who is he?

12 A. He was a cooperating witness, a member

13 of organized crime, a member of the Ferriola

14 Cicero crew, was a collector, an enforcer who

15 worked with Jerry Scarpelli, Tony Borsellino,

16 Butch Petrocelli, Michael Sarno, several others

17 as collectors for the Ferriola crew. He agreed

18 to cooperate secretly with the FBI and was

19 debriefed extensively, wore a concealed body

20 recorder and meetings with members of the

21 Ferriola Crew, Jerry Scarpelli, Mike Sarno.

22 Q. That's the Jerry Scarpelli we

23 mentioned yesterday?

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q. In part Mr. Basile's cooperation led

2 you to your conversations with Mr. Scarpelli?

3 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

4 Q. Okay. You can continue.

5 A. Basile cooperated for approximately

6 two years and then was surfaced. He provided

7 information on the structure of organized crime,

8 on street tax, loan sharking, armed robbery,

9 murders, a whole host of organized crime

10 activities and wore body recorders.

11 Q. What period of time are you talking

12 about that he cooperated?

13 A. 1986 through 1987 -- 1986 through 1988

14 at which time he was surfaced at the arrest of

15 Scarpelli.

16 Q. Did the FBI ever find any of the

17 information that you provided related to the

18 activities of the structure of organized crime to

19 be unreliable?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Did you speak with him about all or

22 some of the members on this Chicago District

23 Council chart, Exhibit 145?

24 A. Yes, I did.


1 Q. When was the most recent occasion you

2 had to speak with Mr. Basile?

3 A. Approximately 1996.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: At that time you were

5 not working as a -- for the LIUNA Inspector

6 General or were you?

7 THE WITNESS: No. At that time I was an

8 inspector with the sheriff's office assigned to

9 the FBI task force prior to my employment with


11 THE HEARING OFFICER: What years did you

12 work as the sheriff's office investigator?

13 THE WITNESS: From the day of my retirement,

14 March of 1995 until May of 1996.


16 Q. Let's get this -- that's a good point

17 of clarification. In some of these instances,

18 you didn't talk about individuals who were listed

19 on the Chicago District Council chart because you

20 wanted to know anything about LIUNA, did you?

21 A. No, sir, that's correct.

22 Q. In other words, you were discussing

23 these names with these individuals prior to

24 having any interest or involvement in LIUNA?


1 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

2 Q. What was your primary focus at the

3 time?

4 A. Organized crime in Chicago.

5 Q. And subsequently you have had some

6 discussions with some of these individuals we are

7 talking about as a LIUNA Inspector General, is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

10 Q. Let's go to the next individual.

11 Lenny Patrick or Leonard Patrick, who is he?

12 A. Yes, sir. Leonard Patrick was a

13 member of organized crime for over 50 years. He

14 began his career with organized crime in the

15 1930s, 1940s. He became a boss of gambling over

16 bookmakers, he was the main conduit for the

17 Jewish bookmakers on the west side of Chicago and

18 then later on the north side, Rogers Park,

19 Lincolnwood, Skokie areas. He was told by Sam

20 Giancana in the 1950s that he would be, quote,

21 "with," unquote, Gus Alex and reported to Gus

22 Alex from then on up until the time of his arrest

23 and cooperation with the FBI.

24 Q. Did Mr. Patrick ever testify in any


1 federal criminal cases?

2 A. Yes, sir, he did.

3 Q. Can you name any of those?

4 A. He testified in a criminal case

5 against Mario Ranone, Nick Gio and Gus Alex in

6 which all were convicted. He testified in a

7 criminal case against Sam Carlisi and his crew in

8 which all were convicted. He testified against

9 John DiFronzo, boss of the Elmwood Park crew, in

10 San Diego, California and they were convicted.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Vaira, I am going to move

12 admission of GEB Attorney Exhibit No. 19. It is

13 the Seventh Circuit opinion related to

14 Mr. Ranone, Gus Alex and Nick Gio. Mr. Carmell

15 has stipulated to this document for purposes of

16 authenticity. This is a court case. It simply

17 reflects that Chief Justice Posner of the Seventh

18 Circuit in 1994 has determined that organized

19 crime was alive and kicking throughout the 1980s

20 based on some of the testimony of the individuals

21 we are talking about here.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: I will accept that.

23 (WHEREUPON, said document,

24 previously marked GEB Attorney


1 Exhibit No. 19, for

2 identification, was offered and

3 received in evidence as GEB

4 Attorney Exhibit No. 19.)

5 MR. BOSTWICK: We are not going to go over

6 anything specific in that.

7 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Bostwick, did you say 17 or

8 19?



11 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, Mr. Patrick, did he

12 provide reliable information in all

13 circumstances? Are you aware of any

14 circumstances in which he provided any unreliable

15 information?

16 A. He provided reliable information in

17 all circumstances regarding organized crime.

18 When he testified in San Diego, he provided

19 information concerning his own involvement in a

20 murder in which he tried to make an alibi and as

21 a result of that at the time of his sentencing,

22 he was given an additional year in prison for

23 being untruthful in attempting to slant the

24 information.


1 Q. Are you aware of any information that

2 he has given to the FBI or in any court cases

3 related to the structure of organized crime that

4 has been found to be unreliable?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. In other words, no information has

7 been found to be unreliable?

8 A. That's correct, no information has

9 been found to be unreliable.

10 Q. Have you spoken to him about all --

11 and by him, I mean Leonard Patrick. Have you

12 spoken to Leonard Patrick about all or some of

13 the members on the Chicago District Council chart

14 marked as Exhibit 145?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Over what period of time?

17 A. Over the period of time that he

18 cooperated with the FBI while he was in witness

19 security and at the MCC. I don't recall, I think

20 it was 1990-91 period of time. He was debriefed

21 extensively for months.

22 Q. And you participated in those

23 debriefings?

24 A. Yes, sir. I was the case agent.


1 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you ever speak with

2 Umberto Fillippi?

3 A. Yes, sir, I did.

4 Q. And who is Umberto Fillippi?

5 A. Umberto Fillippi was an Italian-born

6 immigrant living in Chicago. He was a

7 professional maitre de and waiter and became

8 friendly with an individual named Salvatore

9 Termini or Sal Mango, who was a member of

10 organized crime, eventually became his confidant,

11 his driver, cook, and helper during the period

12 that Mr. Mango was dying of cancer and close

13 personal friend.

14 Q. Has he ever testified in any federal

15 criminal cases?

16 A. No, sir, he has not.

17 Q. Has he provided the FBI information

18 about certain individuals in organized crime?

19 A. Yes, sir, he has.

20 Q. Has that information ever been found

21 to be unreliable?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Have you ever spoken to him about any

24 of these individuals on Exhibit 145?


1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Over what period of time?

3 A. 1996.

4 Q. What position did you hold during that

5 period of time?

6 A. Inspector with the Office of the

7 Inspector General, LIUNA.

8 Q. How about an individual named William

9 Wemette, who is he?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Who is he?

12 A. William "Red" Wemette was a member of

13 the Rush Street North Side Crew, or Grand Avenue

14 Crew as well. He operated a pornographic

15 bookstore and he was a confidential informant for

16 the FBI for a number of years.

17 Q. Over what period of time?

18 A. Approximately 20 years. When he was

19 being shaken down by a Mob enforcer, Frank

20 Schweihs, also known as the German. He agreed to

21 cooperate and to testify and be thereafter

22 recorded for street tax payments and videotape

23 them secretly with the FBI, eventually testified

24 at the trial of Frank Schweihs and his partner,


1 Mandy Daddino, Jeeps Daddino. Both were

2 convicted in federal court and given prison

3 sentences.

4 Q. Has Mr. Wemette over that period of

5 time provided information regarding the organized

6 criminal activities of the Chicago Outfit and

7 structure of that entity?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Has the FBI ever found that

10 information to be unreliable?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Did you speak to him about some or all

13 of the members on this chart, GEB Attorney

14 Exhibit No. 145?

15 A. Yes, sir, I did.

16 Q. Over what period of time?

17 A. It was following his testimony in the

18 Frank Schweihs case, probably, as I recall, 1994,

19 1995.

20 Q. How about Mr. Sam Louis, have you

21 spoken to him?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Who is he?

24 A. Sam Louis is a former Chicago police


1 officer and a business agent for the Hotel

2 Employees and Restaurant Employees Union, now

3 unemployed.

4 Q. Has he ever testified in any federal

5 criminal cases?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. Has he provided you with information

8 regarding the organized criminal activities and

9 structure?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Have you ever spoken to him -- first

12 of all, has he ever provided the FBI with

13 information regarding organized criminal

14 activities in Chicago?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Not to your knowledge?

17 A. Not to my knowledge.

18 Q. Did you speak with him about all or

19 some of the members on this chart, GEB Attorney

20 Exhibit 145?

21 A. Yes, sir, I did.

22 Q. And, I'm sorry, approximately when did

23 you do that?

24 A. Approximately -- well, I spoke with


1 him in January, 1997. In fact, I've spoken to

2 him since. The interview in question occurred

3 two days in January of 1997. I have spoken to

4 him as recently as the last month.

5 Q. How about William Jahoda?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Who is William Jahoda?

8 A. William Jahoda, also known as BJ, was

9 the individual who was in charge of the gambling

10 operations for the Rocky Infelise Cicero Crew.

11 He became a cooperating witness operated by the

12 Internal Revenue Service, was debriefed by IRS

13 and FBI agents extensively, wore a concealed body

14 recorder, and then was surfaced and testified

15 against Rocky Infelise and his crew in the main

16 case in which they were all convicted and he also

17 testified in connection with a murder case in

18 which they murdered a bookmaker and they were

19 convicted as well.

20 Q. When you say they were all convicted

21 in the Infelise case, do you know how many

22 defendants there were approximately?

23 A. Approximately 20. I'm not sure

24 exactly. 20 or more.


1 Q. Approximately what period of time was

2 Mr. Jahoda active in organized crime?

3 A. He was active in organized crime for

4 approximately 10 years, in the gambling aspect of

5 the Ferriola crew, 1980s, up until the time he

6 cooperated with the Bureau.

7 MR. CARMELL: I'm not --


9 Q. Can you give any better approximation

10 than that at this time in terms of the time

11 period that ended?

12 A. Oh, when it ended? It ended at the

13 time of the indictments of Rocky Infelise, and I

14 don't recall when that was, but there's a

15 document which would show that, sir. I think it

16 was 1993. I'm not sure.

17 Q. Well, that's a good frame of

18 reference.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: You'd say roughly in

20 the early '90s then, '91, '92, '93, something

21 like that?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's my

23 recollection.




2 Q. Has Mr. Jahoda provided information to

3 the FBI regarding organized criminal activities

4 and the structure of the Outfit in the past?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Has the FBI ever found that

7 information to be unreliable?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Jahoda about some

10 or all the members on GEB Attorney chart Exhibit

11 No. 145?

12 A. Yes, sir, I did.

13 Q. Over what period of time?

14 A. September the 9th, 1996.

15 Q. I'll also just reference that we spoke

16 about Mr. Gerald Scarpelli yesterday, you went

17 through his 302 and we discussed Mr. Vince

18 Solano, is that not correct?

19 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

20 Q. Now, Mr. O'Rourke, in addition to the

21 witnesses that you've just mentioned, did you

22 ever have occasion to speak to any informants,

23 confidential informants, regarding any of the

24 individuals listed on this time line chart,


1 Exhibit 145?

2 A. Yes, sir, I did.

3 Q. Can you provide the names of these

4 sources?

5 A. No, sir, I cannot.

6 Q. Why is that?

7 A. All were promised confidentiality.

8 Many are long-time confidential informants of the

9 FBI, continue to talk to myself and all have

10 expressed fear of retribution and fear of their

11 life should their identity be revealed.

12 Q. Are some of these individuals current

13 members of the Chicago Outfit?

14 A. Yes, sir, they are.

15 Q. Are you able to refer to these

16 individuals by number and provide us with some

17 limited information about these individuals that

18 does not compromise their identity?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, I want to

21 object right now on this aspect. There is no

22 confidentiality between Mr. O'Rourke as a private

23 citizen and anybody who he might say was a

24 confidential source with the Federal Bureau of


1 Investigation. If that individual spoke to

2 Mr. O'Rourke knowing, as he must have, that he

3 was no longer an FBI agent and that he was simply

4 a private citizen working for a labor union

5 getting paid by that labor union, there is no

6 confidentiality and they have no right to not

7 reveal the name of that person right here and

8 now.

9 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Carmell, this information

10 is used in exactly this form for a number of

11 purposes in federal cases, for search warrants,

12 wire taps and the like. If we can establish that

13 these individuals -- Mr. O'Rourke can testify and

14 give us some basic information, I request that we

15 put this information in, you can take it for what

16 it's worth. Some of it is extremely important.

17 MR. CARMELL: No. This is not a Grand

18 Jury. This is not federal government. This is

19 John O'Rourke, private citizen, talking to a

20 former snitch of his who he knows is no longer,

21 that person knows that Mr. O'Rourke is no longer

22 a member of the FBI of the federal government.

23 The fact that Mr. O'Rourke sits up there and says

24 I told him I would keep the name confidential


1 does not fly here, Mr. Hearing Officer. If they

2 want to keep it confidential, then keep it

3 confidential and don't bring it up here, but you

4 can't be a little bit pregnant. You're not going

5 to say it came to this private citizen and we're

6 not going to know his name or her name and we're

7 going to get numbers.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: The argument that you

9 make may carry if you were in a private civil

10 suit in state court or federal court, may, may

11 not, but it's up to this union, it's up to like,

12 for example, the Teamsters Union to set their own

13 course of what they will respect and what they

14 will not. The Teamsters expect the -- the

15 Teamsters Hearing Officer respects the

16 confidentiality of -- given to their --

17 MR. CARMELL: That is not correct,

18 Mr. Hearing Officer. The independent Hearing

19 Officer or the IRB will respect the FBI agent

20 testifying concerning the confidentiality of a

21 witness. There is no case where a private

22 citizen has gotten up there and said I want to

23 implicate an officer or member of the Teamsters,

24 in what you would call here barred conduct, but


1 I'm not going to tell you because I used to be an

2 FBI agent, and I'm not telling you about

3 conversations that occurred before I retired,

4 but --

5 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, actually we may be

6 doing that.

7 MR. CARMELL: -- but have occurred since.

8 Now, that is the cut line, Mr. Hearing Officer.

9 And with respect it a civil suit, if that would

10 carry in a civil suit, in this lesser proceeding,

11 it certainly carries even more. You are going to

12 attempt to be asked to put an organization into

13 trusteeship and you're going to be asked to do it

14 now on the basis that Mr. O'Rourke is going to

15 have free rein, absolute free rein to say

16 whatever he wants about anybody, about any name

17 and say, well, I said to this person I would keep

18 it confidential. Now, that's unacceptable in any

19 form.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me make one point of

21 clarification.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: You don't have to.

23 Gentlemen, in this particular union's judicial

24 procedure, we will respect that. We will respect


1 that. If it's not respected other places, we

2 do. And I ruled on that in prior times and will

3 continue to do so. The problem we will face or

4 the problem that is a test is when we have

5 confidential information, coming from

6 confidential sources, of course, it must go under

7 -- it must undergo a lot of scrutiny and we're

8 not going to have an entire proceeding based upon

9 confidential sources. If you give some

10 information, or you ask Mr. O'Rourke to give

11 information and he says X, Y and Z are identified

12 as members or associates, they do second story

13 work, or whatever it is, I would ask you also to

14 identify what portion of that information is

15 coming from these sources so we can examine it

16 because obviously it either has to be

17 corroborated or there has to be some substance to

18 it. So I would ask you to differentiate that. I

19 overrule Mr. Sherman Carmell's objection.

20 MR. CARMELL: Do I get the witness'

21 statements? Do I get his notes? Or do I

22 get --


24 MR. CARMELL: I get no notes, no


1 statements?


3 MR. CARMELL: The Supreme Court in the

4 Jencks case said the minimum due process, the

5 right to cross-examine by having witness

6 statements. I'm not going to know the name, I'm

7 not going to get the witness' statements, I'm not

8 going to be able to cross-examine him, and in

9 turn, you're going to take this as evidence, and

10 I'm hearing for whatever it's worth.

11 Well, what is it worth if I don't have

12 the right to cross-examine these witnesses? Why

13 don't we bring those witnesses in under the

14 protective custody in the same way we are going

15 to bring others in? I don't need Mr. O'Rourke to

16 tell me what they said to him, double hearsay.

17 Bring them in under the same protection. We now

18 have names. We have arrangements made, I

19 understand, for the others. I'll get it, either

20 I will get it right from you to see their

21 statements or once they testify. Why can't I

22 have the same right with these persons who

23 Mr. O'Rourke may have made up, as far as I am

24 concerned, may or may not?


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: May or may not, but in

2 our procedure, under the LMRDA, the respondent

3 does not get the same rights as one does in a

4 criminal case.

5 MR. CARMELL: I get the right to

6 cross-examine. I have labor arbitration cases

7 that say that. I have the Supreme Court that

8 says that. You're going to take away the rights

9 of 21,000 members based upon Witness No. 1 who I

10 will never see, who I will have no statements

11 from, and John O'Rourke is going to say whatever

12 he wants to say, whatever his, as the Supreme

13 Court says, treacherous memory will allow him to

14 say, and I can't impeach him, I can't question

15 him, I can't do anything?

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may question

17 him --

18 MR. CARMELL: I question John O'Rourke?

19 You've got another thing coming, Mr. Hearing

20 Officer. I don't question a person who I have no

21 documents about and who can sit up there and tell

22 me, oh, you're wrong, I'll tell you exactly when

23 I talked to him. I talked to him in May of '96,

24 and you know what he told me, and then if I catch


1 him on something, he says, oh, by the way, he

2 gave me a later statement that said this.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's the very same

4 issue that's been cited a number of times in the

5 Teamster cases.

6 MR. CARMELL: Never been cited in a Teamster

7 case.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's the same

9 principle. Let's move on. Let's move on.

10 MR. CARMELL: I just want to make it clear.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: You've made it clear.

12 MR. CARMELL: I want to make one thing clear

13 if I didn't. I am not asking right now for

14 those, at this moment, for those statements which

15 were given to Mr. O'Rourke while he worked for

16 the FBI defined as confidential. I am asking for

17 the names of the witnesses he spoke to in his

18 capacity as the Inspector General and those

19 statements.



22 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, we'll also write down

23 which ones of these individuals you spoke to

24 while you were in the FBI and what limited


1 conversations you may have had after or while you

2 were an Inspector General since that appears to

3 be part of the concern.

4 Let's go through some of these

5 informants.

6 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, can I

7 have a voir dire on this issue of confidentiality

8 with Mr. O'Rourke? I want to question

9 Mr. O'Rourke on some issues so you'll have the

10 record on this issue of confidentiality, this

11 promise of confidentiality.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: He hasn't gotten to

13 the substance. You're about --

14 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.

15 MR. CARMELL: No, no, no.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: We're just going to do the

17 same thing we did with the other individuals.

18 MR. CARMELL: I want to voir dire him on

19 issues as to whether these persons should be

20 confidential.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't we save it

22 until the time we begin to hear about it?

23 MR. CARMELL: Okay.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I mean, you'll


1 get a chance to voir dire him and cross-examine

2 him.

3 MR. CARMELL: I'd like to voir dire him on

4 that issue and go from there, if I may.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm just trying --

6 MR. CARMELL: The timing doesn't matter.

7 I'd just like it before it comes in that I have

8 an opportunity to voir dire him.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We'll grant you

10 that, but let's put this on so it makes some

11 sense as you put it in, and at some appropriate

12 place we'll stop and talk about the issue of the

13 information given to O'Rourke private citizen as

14 opposed to O'Rourke FBI agent, all right, and at

15 that point, we will find a logical place for that

16 to occur. All right?


18 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, let's go through these

19 informants. There are 14 of them, is that

20 correct?

21 A. 11, sir.

22 Q. 11. I'm sorry.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. 11 informants?


1 A. Yes, sir, 11.

2 MR. CARMELL: 11 confidential informants?

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: 11 confidential

4 informants or --

5 THE WITNESS: 11 confidential informants.


7 confidential informants which are the subject of

8 Mr. Carmell's objection.

9 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.


11 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, Informant No. 1, can you

12 tell us the general position that individual

13 holds in the Mob, if any?

14 A. Yes, sir. He is a Chicago Outfit

15 associate and has been personally involved and

16 has had conversations over 40 years with Anthony

17 Accardo, with Joseph Aiuppa, Joe Ferriola.

18 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, could we

19 just identify the person's relationship and not

20 have at this time editorial content? If he's a

21 confidential informant and he's now beginning to

22 tell us all of the things that this person's

23 relationships are, then I don't think it's

24 confidential.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's about the only

2 way one can give some credibility to him. If he

3 said this is an associate who is a toll taker on

4 the turnpike as opposed to being a confidant of

5 Mr. Accardo in high decision making, that's

6 another story.

7 MR. CARMELL: Well, I suppose you're

8 correct, sir. Since Mr. O'Rourke has the

9 absolute prerogative to say anything he wants

10 about these people for any number of years and

11 make it up as he goes along, I guess you're

12 right. We might as well hear the whole fable.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: I object to those

14 statements. I'll sit here and listen to some of

15 these --

16 MR. CARMELL: It's a fable to me until I can

17 get some corroboration.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, let's talk

19 to me. You may label it fabled. Whatever it is,

20 let's hear this evidence and let's hear the

21 corroboration. I was about to ask myself, if you

22 didn't, is he involved -- are these individuals

23 involved, down the line, are they, as I say, a

24 mere toll taker on the turnpike, are they


1 involved in criminal activity themselves, do they

2 have normal jobs and just associate on the side,

3 or where is it they fit into the business?

4 Okay. Go ahead.


6 Q. Precisely where we were going with

7 No. 1. Why don't you continue your statement,

8 Mr. O'Rourke.

9 A. Yes, sir. He's, as I said, a Mob

10 associate, he's had known membership with top

11 leaders of the Chicago Mob for over 40 years and

12 has had conversations with them. He is trusted

13 by them and has provided information since 1988

14 up until 1996, the last time I interviewed him.

15 All of his information has been proven accurate.

16 He identified before the FBI as being generally

17 aware of Mob bosses Sam Carlisi and later Joseph

18 Andriacci --

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Does he work?

20 THE WITNESS: He's retired, sir.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Did he work?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: A legitimate job or

24 did he hustle with the Outfit?


1 THE WITNESS: No, sir. He had a job

2 involved in trucking and market activities.


4 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you ever speak to

5 this individual while you were a LIUNA Inspector

6 General or was your contact with him only as a

7 result of your Bureau communications?

8 A. Both, sir. While I was a special

9 agent of the FBI and then several times since

10 then as an inspector with LIUNA.

11 Q. On No. 2, Informant No. 2, could you

12 tell us generally what that individual's position

13 is with the Mob?

14 A. Yes, sir. He is a Mob associate, was

15 a former burglar, and jewel thief, personally

16 acquainted, grew up with, personally acquainted

17 with Tony Spilotro, Joe Lombardo, many of the top

18 members of organized crime, continues to provide

19 information, began speaking with him -- other

20 agents spoke with him before I did. He's been an

21 informant for approximately since 1968 to the

22 present time.

23 Q. Without disclosing what job he held,

24 did he hold a job or did he actually hold some


1 permanent position in the Outfit only?

2 A. No, sir. He's a Mob associate and he

3 in the past has been involved in street crimes,

4 cartage theft, burglary, narcotics.

5 Q. Did you ever speak to him as a LIUNA

6 Inspector General or just as FBI?

7 A. Both as an FBI agent and as an

8 inspector.

9 Q. How about No. 3?

10 A. No. 3 is a Mob associate, former

11 member of the Ferriola Cicero Crew. He's worked

12 in the past as a burglar, armed robber, enforcer,

13 collector, is employed at the present time for

14 the City of Chicago.

15 Q. No. 4?

16 A. No. 4 --

17 Q. I'm sorry. Let me ask you about No. 3

18 first. Had you spoken to him as a LIUNA

19 Inspector General or only as an FBI agent?

20 A. Both, as an FBI agent and as an

21 inspector with LIUNA.

22 Q. Is that true for all these informants

23 or not?

24 A. No, sir, it's not.


1 Q. Okay. Then we'll keep going through

2 them seriatim. No. 4, could you tell us who that

3 individual is?

4 A. No. 4 --

5 Q. Gentleman.

6 A. No. 4 is a former associate member of

7 organized crime, worked as an agent in a gambling

8 operation with the 26th Street Chinatown Crew,

9 worked in connection with the Ferriola Crew who

10 was in regular contact with individuals such as

11 Michael Sarno, Sal Gruttadauro, James Peter

12 Basile, Jerry Scarpelli, and others, provided

13 valuable information over many years, 1985, I

14 believe it was, up until the present time. His

15 information has been utilized to obtain Title 3

16 wire taps, search warrants, and has resulted in

17 the arrest and convictions of Mob members.

18 Q. Can you tell us whether or not you

19 have spoken --

20 MR. CARMELL: Can we identify the Mob

21 members which were -- which Mr. O'Rourke has

22 volunteered led to convictions, wire taps led to

23 convictions?

24 THE WITNESS: Rocky Infelise Crew, sir.



2 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you speak with this

3 individual No. 4 as a LIUNA Inspector General or

4 only when you were with the Bureau?

5 A. Only when I was a Bureau agent, sir.

6 Q. How about No. 5, can you give that

7 individual's general position in the Mob without

8 disclosing the identity?

9 A. Yes, sir. He was, again, a Mob

10 associate, personally contacted and talked with

11 Al Pilotto, Al Tocco, Jerry Scarpelli, Jerry

12 Scalise, Duke Basile, Solly Cautadella, Rocky

13 Infelise over the years, provided information

14 that has been utilized in Title 3 affidavits,

15 search warrants and his information has led to

16 the arrest of a number of Mob members, primarily

17 the Ferriola Crew individuals.

18 Q. Have you spoken to this individual

19 No. 5 after you were a LIUNA Inspector General,

20 when you were a LIUNA Inspector General?

21 A. Yes, sir, I did.

22 Q. And with the FBI?

23 A. As well as with the FBI, yes, sir.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: What did this fellow


1 do?

2 THE WITNESS: Worked for the Cook County,

3 sir, and also various other jobs in the course of

4 his life.


6 Q. I believe we are up to No. 6 now, is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Can you give the general information

10 on the sixth individual?

11 A. Yes, sir. He is an individual who

12 provided information to me strictly as an

13 inspector with LIUNA. He is from the 26th Street

14 Chinatown area and has limited knowledge of

15 organized crime activities, but some knowledge of

16 it.

17 Q. How about No. 7?

18 A. No. 7 is a former -- is a confidential

19 informant of the FBI. He is an organized crime

20 associate familiar with the North Side Crew or

21 Rush Street Crew.

22 Q. Over what period of time

23 approximately?

24 A. Oh, late 1970s up until the current


1 time, 1980s, 1990s.

2 Q. Have you discussed that individual --

3 have you discussed the individuals on this chart,

4 Exhibit 145, with that individual either before

5 or after you became -- after you were in the

6 Bureau?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Okay. Did you discuss -- so both?

9 A. No, sir. I discussed this with them

10 as an inspector of LIUNA. He was provided to me

11 by former colleagues in the FBI and was

12 interviewed in that connection. He continues to

13 provide confidential information to the Bureau.

14 Q. How about No. 8?

15 A. No. 8, yes, sir.

16 Q. Can you provide a general description

17 of who he is?

18 A. No. 8 is an individual who has

19 personal knowledge of organized crime

20 activities. He is not a Mob associate. He is in

21 a position to provide information, and the

22 information that he has provided over the years

23 has been accurate. He is not directly in contact

24 with organized crime members, but with the


1 exception of two or three that he knows socially,

2 but the information that he has been able to

3 provide has been accurate in the past.

4 Q. Did you speak with him as a LIUNA

5 Inspector General?

6 A. Yes, both as an FBI agent and as an

7 Inspector General to LIUNA.

8 Q. How about No. 9?

9 A. No. 9 is a Mob associate, former

10 member of the Elmwood Park Crew in personal

11 contact with a number of Mob members, Marco

12 D'Amico, John DiFronzo, Peter DiFronzo and

13 others.

14 Q. Have you spoken to him as a LIUNA

15 Inspector General?

16 A. Yes, sir, I have.

17 Q. Have you spoken to him as an FBI

18 agent?

19 A. Yes, sir, I have.

20 Q. How about No. 10?

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: No. 9, I assume since

22 he was an associate in the crew, he essentially

23 stole for a living instead of having some

24 legitimate job?


1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


3 Q. No. 10?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Can you describe for us who he is?

6 A. Yes, sir. No. 10 is an associate of

7 the Mob, member of the Elmwood Park Crew,

8 provided information to the FBI and to myself as

9 an Inspector General in the late 1990s up until

10 as recently as last week.

11 Q. How about No. 11, this is the last

12 one, is that correct?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. No. 11 is an individual who has

16 provided information. He has direct information

17 concerning individuals in the Rosemont, Illinois

18 area. Over the years he has personally talked

19 with Mob members such as Joseph Aiuppa, Tony

20 Spilotro, several others and his information has

21 been accurate.

22 Q. Did he have a regular job or was he

23 solely involved in stealing?

24 A. No, sir. He had a regular job.


1 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Did I miss 10,

2 whether he had spoken to him solely as the FBI or

3 solely LIUNA?

4 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe his testimony was

5 that it was both.


7 MR. CARMELL: No. 10 is both. I just missed

8 it. Thank you.


10 Q. And on No. 11 I don't believe we have

11 had that question yet, but did you speak to him

12 in your capacity as an agent in the FBI?

13 A. Yes, sir, in my capacity as an agent

14 in the FBI and subsequently in my capacity as an

15 inspector.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Vaira, if you want to

17 take a short break for the court reporters, this

18 would be a logical point. If not, we can

19 continue.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: After that, this would

21 be a logical place for Mr. Carmell to make his

22 voir dire.

23 MR. BOSTWICK: Right now if you want to do

24 it before the break.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: We will wait until the

2 break.

3 MR. CARMELL: I just have two questions,

4 really.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Two questions. You

6 are not limited to that, but go ahead, sir.



9 Q. Excusing No. 4 who you saw only as

10 the -- in your capacity as special agent of the

11 Bureau, each of the other individuals was either

12 furnished to you by former FBI agents or you

13 contacted, is that correct?

14 A. All of them were developed by myself

15 when I was an FBI special agent with the

16 exception of No. 7, confidential informant

17 No. 10, seven on the list.

18 Q. And when you spoke to them in your

19 capacity as the inspector -- with the Inspector

20 General's office, you told them that, did you

21 not?

22 A. I told them I was an inspector?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes, sir, I did.


1 Q. You told them basically what your job

2 was?

3 A. Yes, sir, I did.

4 MR. CARMELL: I have nothing else.

5 MR. BOSTWICK: This would be a logical

6 point.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: It is early, so we'll

8 take only a 10-minute break.

9 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)



12 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, let me ask you to pull

13 Exhibit 6 which is a binder out of the exhibit

14 box and ask you to look at Exhibit 6A, if you

15 would.

16 Are you on 6A?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Can you tell me what that is?

19 A. That is a photograph of top leadership

20 of the Chicago organized crime syndicate taken at

21 a restaurant on North Harlem Avenue sometime in

22 the mid 1970s. It is often referred to as the

23 last supper photograph.

24 Q. Where was this photograph originally


1 obtained, if you know?

2 A. My understanding, it was obtained

3 during a search warrant conducted on the

4 residence of Joseph Ceasar DiVarco by IRS

5 agents.

6 Q. Have you spoken to a number of

7 witnesses, informants about the individuals in

8 this photo?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Referring to them with this photo?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Is it your understanding that this is

13 a fair and accurate representation of these

14 individuals?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.

17 If he can identify that it is a fair and accurate

18 representation based upon his personal knowledge,

19 that's one thing, but if he is basing it on

20 something else, I would like to know who the

21 people are, where he got the information.


23 Q. To the extent you can do that.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's do it this way.


1 You may ask him to identify if he recognizes them

2 and then the ones that he doesn't, he can

3 identify he has been told who these are by other

4 persons. I don't think it is necessary for him

5 to identify who told him these persons either are

6 or are not in the Mob and who they are. I don't

7 think it is that pivotal in this case, who told

8 him who they are.


10 Q. Do you know who these individuals are

11 and their positions in the Chicago Outfit?

12 A. Yes, sir, I do.

13 Q. How do you know this?

14 A. 32 years in law enforcement, 23 years

15 working organized crime cases, mug shots that I

16 have viewed, physical surveillances, interviews

17 that I have conducted, interviews with informants

18 in which I showed them the photograph and they

19 identified these individuals, cooperating

20 witnesses, some of which I have mentioned earlier

21 who identified the photograph and identified the

22 individuals.

23 Q. Do you recognize the individual in

24 Photo No. 8?


1 A. Yes, sir, I do.

2 Q. Who is that?

3 A. That is the late Vincent Solano.

4 Q. What is Mr. Solano's position in the

5 Chicago Outfit?

6 A. Vincent Solano was the boss of the

7 north side which included the Rush Street Crew

8 for many years.


10 gentlemen, that a great many persons who read

11 Chicago would know a number of these persons.

12 Mr. Accardo openly lived in River Forest. His

13 house used to be a subject of driving by, you can

14 walk around outside. A number of these persons

15 had existences. Even though they may not have

16 had legitimate jobs, a person can pick them out

17 and see them in typical locations. They used to

18 eat I understand at various places throughout the

19 west side, so there is no big secret who they

20 are. So go ahead and identify them.


22 Q. Who were Mr. Solano's main associates?

23 A. Well, the individuals depicted in the

24 photograph all of whom are --


1 MR. CARMELL: Can we clarify main

2 associates? In this photograph?


4 Q. In this photograph?

5 A. The individuals that he is having

6 dinner with in the photograph are many of his

7 associates. They are top bosses of organized

8 crime in Chicago at that time in addition to

9 other individuals not in the photograph.

10 Q. Could you name these individuals in

11 the photograph?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Who is No. 1?

14 A. No. 1 is Anthony Accardo who was the

15 boss of the Chicago organized crime syndicate.

16 MR. CARMELL: Can we just get the names?

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: We will get the names

18 first, how is that. We can identify them later.

19 Go ahead.


21 A. No. 2 is Joe Aamato, Black Joe Aamato

22 now deceased; No. 3 is Joseph Ceasar DiVarco, now

23 deceased; No. 4 is James Turk Torello, now

24 deceased; No. 5 is a Joseph Lombardo, Senior; No.


1 6 is a Jackie Cerone, Senior, now deceased; No. 7

2 is Al Pilotto; No. 8 as I said is Vincent Solano;

3 No. 9 is Dominic Dibella, now deceased; and No.

4 10 is Joseph Aiuppa, now deceased.


6 Q. Did you ask or discuss with any of the

7 witnesses and informants that you named earlier

8 Vince Solano's position in the Chicago Outfit?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. How many witnesses did you discuss

11 this with?

12 A. Five witnesses, sir.

13 Q. How many informants?

14 A. 11.

15 Q. Was there any consensus as to his

16 position in the Chicago Outfit?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. What was the consensus?

19 A. That I was the boss of the north side

20 which included the Rush Street Crew for many

21 years.

22 Q. Is this consistent with the FBI's

23 classification of Vince Solano as of 1996 to the

24 best of your understanding?


1 A. Yes, sir. He passed away, but he was

2 known in the FBI as the boss of the North Side

3 Crew, yes, sir.

4 MR. CARMELL: Did you say 1996?

5 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct. Is it

6 consistent with his classification? I understand

7 that he just said he passed away.

8 MR. CARMELL: That's the confusion I have.

9 MR. BOSTWICK: His classification as having

10 been.


12 MR. BOSTWICK: Maybe I'll clarify that

13 question. Why don't I ask it again.


15 Q. Is it consistent with your

16 understanding of the FBI's classification that

17 Vincent Solano was a Chicago Outfit boss of the

18 north side until his death in the early 1990s?

19 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

20 Q. And is that consistent on the FBI's

21 classification as of 1996, to your knowledge?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Based on your experience, your

24 information, how would you classify Mr. Vincent


1 Solano, a member, associate or relative of

2 organized crime?

3 A. He was a member of organized crime.

4 Q. Let me get you to get out Exhibit 145

5 which is the Chicago District Council chart.

6 A. Yes, sir, I have it right here.

7 Q. And what I am going to do is ask you

8 to pull out the red pen which I think should say

9 member on it. What I would like you to do is

10 simply draw a line in red for Mr. Solano.

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Now, who is -- you identified No. 7 as

13 Al Pilotto?

14 A. Yes, sir, correct.

15 Q. He is also on this Chicago District

16 Council chart, Exhibit 145?

17 A. Yes, he is.

18 Q. Do you know what his position was in

19 the Chicago Outfit, if any?

20 A. Yes, sir. He was the long-time boss

21 of the Chicago Heights or South Suburban Crew.

22 Q. What were his main functions and

23 responsibilities in that position?

24 A. He was in charge of organized crime


1 rackets in the south suburbs which included in

2 the past loan sharking, gambling, street tax and

3 other organized crime-related rackets.

4 Q. Over what period of time was

5 Mr. Pilotto in that position of the Chicago

6 Outfit?

7 A. He was in that position probably for

8 20 years. I don't know when he started. At

9 least 20 years until he was convicted of labor

10 racketeering in Miami, Florida, and that would

11 have been in about approximately 1984 and then he

12 was in prison.

13 Q. And that date is an approximation, the

14 date of the conviction?

15 A. Yes, sir. Sometime in the early

16 1980s.

17 Q. Did you have an occasion to speak with

18 any of the witnesses and sources you have

19 testified about about Mr. Pilotto's relationship

20 to the Chicago Outfit?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. How many witnesses?

23 A. I spoke with six witnesses and eight

24 confidential informants.


1 Q. And was there any consensus on what

2 Mr. Pilotto's position was in the Chicago Outfit?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. What was that?

5 A. He was the boss of the South Suburban,

6 Chicago Heights Group.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Was he a member, a

8 made member --

9 THE WITNESS: Boss and a made member, yes,

10 sir, Mr. Vaira.


12 Q. Based on your information and

13 experience, how would you classify Mr. Pilotto;

14 is it made member?

15 A. Yes, sir, a made member.

16 Q. Let's take the red pen again and do

17 the vice president Al Pilotto from about '75

18 there to '80. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. How about No. 5? Who is No. 5 in the

21 photo?

22 A. No. 5 is Joseph Lombardo, Senior.

23 Q. Do you know what his position was in

24 the Outfit?


1 A. Yes, sir. He was the boss of the

2 Grand Avenue Crew of organized crime of Chicago.

3 Q. And did you have an occasion -- what

4 was his main responsibilities in that position?

5 A. Yes, sir. He was the boss of the

6 Grand Avenue Crew. He was in charge of a crew of

7 organized crime members engaged in loan sharking,

8 gambling, street tax collection, murders,

9 enforcement.

10 Q. Did you have occasion to talk to any

11 of the sources and witnesses that you have

12 identified earlier about Mr. Lombardo?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. That's Mr. Lombardo, Senior, correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Could you tell us whether there was a

17 consensus on Mr. Lombardo's position in the

18 Outfit?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And what was that? What was the

21 consensus of opinion?

22 A. The consensus of opinion was that he

23 was well known as the boss of the Grand Avenue

24 Crew, a made member of organized crime.


1 Q. Do you see this Joseph Lombardo,

2 Junior on the chart, Exhibit 145?

3 A. Yes, sir, right.

4 Q. Do you know if Mr. Lombardo, Junior is

5 related to Joe Lombardo in any way, the

6 individual depicted in No. A5, Exhibit A5?

7 A. Yes, sir, Joey Lombardo, Junior was

8 the son of Joseph Lombardo, Senior.

9 Q. That's Exhibit 6A5, I should say.

10 Can you take the green highlighter pen

11 marked relative and color that portion in.

12 MR. CARMELL: Is something wrong with having

13 a son --

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, I --

15 MR. CARMELL: I find that --

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand that and

17 it goes to my line too. You can't visit the sins

18 of the father on the son. Maybe there is some

19 other information. That's a different story.

20 MR. CARMELL: I prefer -- it is not proper

21 that Mr. Lombardo is here, that we don't have

22 green lines. We have had lines for people who

23 are made members. Being a relative does not

24 warrant that. At some point if they want to tie


1 him up, if they -- do to something else, let them

2 do it. This is really --

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I agree with you

4 and I am trying to think. You may have other

5 information, you may present whatever it is.

6 MR. CARMELL: Sir, we have the record, so we

7 don't need the color, that's all I am saying. He

8 has made the statement now. It is in the record.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: I agree with you

10 there. I think who the person is born to,

11 whoever they are, if they have relatives, who

12 knows what the relatives have done and there may

13 be a line, there may not be. I think just out of

14 fairness for our members and those of us who are

15 of Italian distraction, maybe we shouldn't be

16 putting green lines. Why don't we just go with

17 the record.

18 MR. BOSTWICK: The only statement I'd make

19 on that, Mr. Vaira, is this is just a

20 demonstration. I am more than happy to not use

21 the green highlighter during this demonstration.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Sometime along

23 the line you may say whatever it is with a

24 checkmark, say we approve of this, this is a


1 connection. Just the fact that he happens to be

2 at least at this point --

3 MR. BOSTWICK: The only statement I make on

4 that is that the point is that in connection with

5 these other individuals, there is a pattern on

6 this chart.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: That very well may

8 be. I mean, that could be and we understand

9 that. Just for the sake of --

10 MR. BOSTWICK: That's fine.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: -- presentation or

12 evidence, you may come in and have whatever

13 evidence, and I am sure that we'll take a closer

14 look at it, but for the sake of -- I think the

15 point is well taken.


17 Q. How do you know, Mr. O'Rourke, that

18 Mr. Lombardo, Junior is the son of Mr. Lombardo,

19 Senior?

20 A. I interviewed Mr. Lombardo as well as

21 his deposition was taken under oath and from

22 experience.

23 Q. So you are aware of that fact?

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: No one is not

2 saying -- okay.

3 MR. BOSTWICK: I am just trying -- if we can

4 stipulate to it, that's fine too.


6 Q. Who is in Photograph 6A, who is the

7 individual marked as No. 1 again?

8 A. No. 1?

9 Q. Yes, sir.

10 A. Anthony Accardo.

11 Q. What was his position in the Outfit?

12 A. He was -- originally was the bodyguard

13 for Al Capone. He was in the Mob for all of his

14 life. He became the boss of the Chicago

15 Organized Crime Syndicate. Until his death he

16 had a leadership role in the Mob in Chicago.

17 Q. Is this information consistent as to

18 how he was classified during his tenure in the

19 Outfit? Is that information current as of 1996,

20 to the best of your knowledge?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Was Mr. Accardo ever indicted, to your

23 knowledge?

24 A. He was indicted in the same cast with


1 Al Pilotto and Jimmy Caporale in Miami, Florida

2 in connection with the labor racketeering fraud

3 case.

4 Q. And what union was that?

5 A. The Laborers' Union, sir.

6 Q. Was Mr. Accardo --

7 MR. CARMELL: Is that accurate, the

8 Laborers' Union?

9 MR. BOSTWICK: Is it the --

10 MR. CARMELL: CSA case?

11 MR. BOSTWICK: Right.


13 Q. Is it affiliated with the District

14 Council, was that case related to a fund

15 affiliated with the Chicago District Council?

16 A. Yes, sir, it was.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Accardo was

18 indicted several other times before that and it

19 was never -- I believe never -- conviction never

20 stood.


22 Q. That was my next question. On this

23 specific matter, do you know if Mr. Accardo --

24 A. He was found not guilty by the jury.


1 Q. How about Mr. Pilotto and

2 Mr. Caporale?

3 A. Mr. Pilotto and Mr. Caporale were both

4 found guilty and sentenced to prison.

5 Q. Let me refer you to Exhibit 6C if I

6 can.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: I must point out that

8 those -- the prosecutions of Mr. Accardo were

9 carried out by some of the best prosecutors

10 around and he won every time. One of those

11 prosecutors was me. I tried in my other day and

12 lost. It was a case involving some firearms in

13 his house in 1965.


15 Q. On Exhibit 6C, do you recognize that

16 individual?

17 A. Yes, sir. It is James Caporale.

18 Q. Have you investigated whether

19 Mr. Caporale was a member or associate of the

20 Chicago Outfit?

21 A. Yes, sir, I have.

22 Q. What -- as a result of that, what have

23 you concluded?

24 A. Two witnesses and five confidential


1 informants identified him as a member or

2 associate of the Chicago organized crime

3 syndicate. In addition, of course, he was

4 indicted and convicted of labor racketeering at

5 Miami, Florida as we discussed.

6 Q. Based on your information and

7 experience, is that classified -- how would you

8 classify him, a member, an associate or a family

9 member?

10 A. Well, he -- some of the witnesses

11 indicated he was a member and others indicated

12 that he was an associate, so --

13 Q. Why don't we take the associate, take

14 the blue pen, we will take the lower of those two

15 classifications and mark off James Caporale, see

16 where he is the business manager in the mid '80s

17 approximately?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And secretary/treasurer through

20 approximately '86 or '87 there?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you ever speak with

23 Mr. Granata, one of the witnesses you've

24 mentioned, about an instance where Anthony


1 Accardo and Jackie Cerone exerted influence over

2 the selection of officers of the Chicago District

3 Council?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to any

6 testimony. This is a double -- this is hearsay.

7 Mr. Granata is the person who would be the

8 witness to testify concerning what he saw,

9 observed, and Mr. O'Rourke is now going to tell

10 us, this nonconfidential witness, what he had

11 said to him. That's not affidavit and I can't

12 have an opportunity and need the opportunity to

13 have Mr. Granata make those statements.


15 objection. We'll hear it and we'll see if it's

16 corroborated in any fashion.

17 MR. CARMELL: Will I get any 302 statements,

18 any kinds of pieces of papers of interviews that

19 Mr. O'Rourke had concerning the matter which

20 we're discussing now which is going to be

21 discussed in the testimony? I don't care to see

22 necessarily any general 302s, but I want to see

23 any 302s -- he saw him on July 14th, he saw him

24 before that time, and so there would be 302s that


1 he did while he was in the sheriff's office he

2 has because he's been riffling through papers

3 there, notes of his conversations concerning

4 these people, and so I'm asking for them.


6 MR. BOSTWICK: I would object to that.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: We've had that

8 conversation in the past. In these proceedings,

9 we have not ordered the GEB Attorney to turn them

10 over. I'm going to deny the motion.

11 MR. CARMELL: You're going to deny the

12 motion. So he's going to testify to what Granata

13 said? Again, this is like a confidential witness

14 and I have no pieces of paper to see whether

15 there is anything consistent or inconsistent with

16 it?

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's right. Let's

18 see if it's corroborated. Standing alone it

19 means nothing. Let's see if it's corroborated or

20 supported in any way by any corroboration.

21 MR. CARMELL: If I can just clarify that one

22 statement you made. That applies to all of these

23 witnesses that are named and all of the

24 confidential witnesses, that Mr. O'Rourke's


1 testimony means nothing unless they're

2 corroborated?


4 corroborated in some fashion.


6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Standing alone doesn't

7 do any good. You know, you and I know the danger

8 of hearsay. The English system always questions

9 that. There must be some corroboration to give

10 it credibility.

11 MR. CARMELL: This is being let in for the

12 truth of the matter. This isn't being let in, as

13 I understand it, for what Mr. Granata may have

14 said to Mr. O'Rourke or what Mr. O'Rourke's

15 mental -- pardon me -- state of mind is. It's

16 being let in for the truth of the statement that

17 Mr. Granata made?

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: That is, if it is

19 supported in some other fashion, corroborated in

20 some other fashion.

21 MR. CARMELL: You've ruled.



24 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, how was Mr. Granata in a


1 position to know anything about activity in the

2 Laborers District Council?

3 A. Mr. Granata was a member of, Joseph

4 Granata, was a member of organized crime. He was

5 part of the Cicero Crew. He dealt with on a

6 daily basis members of the Cicero Crew, those I

7 mentioned earlier. His father, Frank Granata,

8 Sr., was a long-time member of the Chicago

9 organized crime syndicate, was related to Paul

10 "The Waiter" Ricca, boss of the Chicago

11 organized crime syndicate.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: What he did do? You

13 say he's a member of the Cicero Crew. What did

14 he do? I presume he did not have a legitimate

15 job.

16 THE WITNESS: He did have a legitimate job.

17 How often he performed it, I'm not sure, but he

18 was an undertaker, funeral undertaker, and, in

19 fact, buried, prepared for burial, many members

20 of organized crime, including Petrocelli and

21 other individuals.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: He is an undertaker?

23 THE WITNESS: Joseph Granata was an

24 undertaker.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: And was licensed?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, he was.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.

4 MR. CARMELL: I move to strike as being

5 nonresponsive. The question, as I understood it,

6 was how he knew about the Laborers.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, okay. You don't

8 mean my question?

9 MR. CARMELL: No, Mr. O'Rourke's response is

10 nonresponsive to the question. He's talked about

11 Mr. Granata's relationships with XYZ, but the

12 question was the relationship with the Laborers,

13 how did he know about the Laborers.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may ask the

15 question again. As I understand it,

16 nonresponsive is generally reserved for the

17 person who asks the questions, but you are simply

18 directing him to a better answer, correct, sir?

19 MR. CARMELL: I'm simply directing him -- we

20 constantly get names and names and names which

21 don't have anything to do as yet with the

22 question of the Laborers.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I agree. He's

24 pointing you to a question we're all going to ask


1 anyway and I interrupted your thought by trying

2 to find out what Granata did for a living.

3 MR. BOSTWICK: As a matter of fact, I think

4 he was getting around to it. That was background

5 to the question.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Now get around

7 to it, sir.


9 Q. The question again is -- you described

10 his relationship with the Outfit. Does that flow

11 into his knowledge of the Chicago District

12 Council?

13 A. Yes, sir, it does.

14 Q. How is that?

15 A. He was involved in the operation of

16 the Galewood Funeral Home on 1800 North Harlem

17 Avenue which has been utilized for many years as

18 the place where members of organized crime are

19 oftentimes waked. In addition to that, there was

20 meetings which were oftentimes held in the

21 basement of the Galewood Funeral Home by top

22 members of organized crime. Mr. Granata was

23 present at such a meeting with his father in --

24 at the time that Joseph Spingola was named and


1 selected to be the business manager and president

2 of LIUNA.

3 Q. Did Mr. Granata tell you specifics

4 about that event?

5 A. Yes, sir. He indicated that his

6 father, who was loyal to Paul "The Waiter" Ricca

7 in that faction wished an individual named Thomas

8 Crivellone to be the named nominee, but was

9 overruled by Tony Accardo who sent Jackie Cerone

10 to a meeting. At that point, Joey Granata was

11 sent to get Joe Spingola and bring him down to

12 the basement where --

13 Q. Let me stop you there.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go slow here and walk

15 this through in chronology. We're going to hear

16 this as a hearsay statement. Everybody is

17 entitled to know who said what and in what

18 progression and what chronology it went.


20 Q. There is a meeting at the funeral

21 home, is that correct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Approximately when?

24 A. It was approximately sometime in late


1 1960s. I don't have the exact date because he

2 couldn't recall it. But it was just before

3 Joseph Spingola assumed that position.

4 Q. Had you indicated to Mr. Spingola --

5 I'm sorry. Had you indicated to Mr. Granata in

6 any fashion when it was, your understanding was

7 that Joseph Spingola became the president and

8 business manager of the Chicago District Council

9 before he told you this?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. So it's in the late '60s at some

12 point?

13 MR. CARMELL: Wait a minute. We fixed from

14 Mr. O'Rourke the date of this conversation is in

15 the '60s. Can we at least fix the date that

16 Mr. Granata supposedly told Mr. O'Rourke about

17 this conversation?

18 MR. BOSTWICK: That's fine. I can ask you

19 that question.


21 Q. When was it that he told you this, to

22 the best of your recollection? If you can give

23 an approximation, that's fine.

24 A. September of 1996, he was interviewed


1 by myself and the FBI agents at the Federal

2 Building in Chicago.

3 Q. Let's discuss specifically who was at

4 this meeting.

5 A. He indicated that Jackie Cerone, Sr.

6 was present, his father, Frank Granata, Sr., was

7 present, and he was present for part of the

8 meeting as well as Joe Spingola. There may have

9 been others, but he didn't recall who else was

10 there.

11 Q. What occurred at the meeting,

12 according to Mr. Granata?

13 A. At the meeting, he indicated that

14 Jackie Cerone informed Joe Spingola that he was

15 to be named on orders of Tony Accardo the

16 business manager and president.

17 Q. What role did Mr. Granata specifically

18 play in that meeting?

19 A. Joey Granata said that he was told to

20 go upstairs and get Mr. Joe Spingola and bring

21 him down to the basement where he was to be

22 informed of this and did so.

23 Q. Now, Mr. O'Rourke, is the Jackie

24 Cerone we're talking about an individual who is


1 in 6A, in the binder?

2 A. Yes, sir, he is.

3 Q. What was Mr. Cerone's position in the

4 outfit?

5 A. At that time, he was under boss of the

6 Chicago organized crime syndicate, a made member

7 and a long-time boss, former driver for Tony

8 Accardo.

9 Q. Was Mr. Spingola ever indicted, to

10 your knowledge?

11 A. Yes, he was.

12 Q. Can I get you to look at Exhibits 44

13 and 45. These exhibits will require a little

14 explanation because they're stapled together.

15 Let's go with Exhibit 44 first. This is a

16 three-page document, is it not?

17 A. Yes, sir, it is.

18 Q. But, in fact, isn't it two items?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Okay. What are those items?

21 A. It's United States of America versus

22 Joseph J. Spingola. It was filed July the 3rd,

23 1969, and it's an indictment.

24 Q. And what is the second item, the item


1 on the last page of Exhibit 45 -- 44? I'm sorry.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's information.

3 THE WITNESS: Information. Excuse me, sir.

4 United States of America versus Anthony Esposito

5 and Joseph J. Spingola filed July the 3rd, 1969.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, I filed

7 this information. I didn't prosecute the

8 information, but I filed the information. The

9 case was tried by Mike Siavellis, but I was the

10 person who brought that -- I mean, United States

11 Attorney Foran brought that, but I was the

12 prosecutor who presented that information.


14 Q. Let me refer you to Exhibit 45.

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Can you tell me what -- that's a

17 two-page exhibit.

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Can you tell me what's on each page?

20 A. Yes, sir. This is the jury verdict

21 which indicates that the jury found the

22 defendant, Joseph J. Spingola, guilty as charged

23 in the information.

24 Q. Okay. What is the second page of


1 Exhibit 45?

2 A. A similar document, the jury found the

3 defendant, Joseph J. Spingola, guilty as charged

4 in the information.

5 MR. BOSTWICK: I move for admission of 44

6 and 45.


8 (WHEREUPON, said documents,

9 previously marked GEB Attorney

10 Exhibit Nos. 44 and 45, for

11 identification, were offered and

12 received in evidence.)

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a misdemeanor.

14 That's a misdemeanor.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: The substance of those

16 exhibits will speak for themselves.


18 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did Mr. Granata indicate

19 to you whether or not Mr. Spingola had any

20 position in the Chicago Outfit?

21 A. Yes, sir, he identified Mr. Spingola

22 as a Mob associate.

23 Q. Let's take your blue pen again and see

24 where Mr. Spingola is president and then also


1 business manager.

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Would you mark that.

4 MR. CARMELL: We are marking this just

5 because you want to mark it or are you marking it

6 because you believe that it has now been

7 established that he's an associate?


9 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, what is your conclusion

10 based on your experience and your information

11 about Mr. Spingola's position in the Chicago

12 Outfit?

13 A. That he's a Mob associate, sir.

14 MR. CARMELL: Well, he hasn't got any of the

15 criteria on Granata.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's put it this

17 way. It's not going to be like a criminal trial

18 where at one point the Judge says I've heard

19 enough information to indicate that this is a

20 conspiracy and now the information can come in

21 against everybody. We don't need to do that.

22 The fact that Mr. Bostwick colors them blue or

23 red doesn't identify -- in fact, the document

24 sitting up there, as I pointed out, the danger of


1 these charts is that they seem to like on a life

2 of their own. The record is what the record is.

3 And there may be other persons who doubt that, we

4 may have to erase some of the blue. So it is for

5 information only.

6 At the end of this proceeding it will

7 be up to Mr. Bostwick to demonstrate that the

8 record indicates that Mr. Spingola, through

9 whatever information, corroborated or otherwise,

10 was an associate. He's no longer alive, am I

11 right?

12 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. O'Rourke.

13 THE WITNESS: He died just recently, yes,

14 sir.



17 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, in the course of your

18 investigation, did you come across any additional

19 information between the relationships between

20 Anthony Accardo and the leadership of the Chicago

21 District Council as it's set forth on Exhibit

22 145?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And what is that? What relationships


1 did you --

2 A. Yes, sir. Anthony Accardo's

3 son-in-law, Ernest Kumerow, was the business

4 manager and president which followed Joseph

5 Spingola. He was the president which followed

6 Joseph Spingola and became business manager after

7 James Caporale.

8 Q. And is there -- how about Craig

9 Kumerow?

10 A. Yes, sir. Mr. Craig Kumerow is the

11 son of Ernest Kumerow and the grandson of Anthony

12 Accardo.

13 Q. And he's listed here in the middle of

14 Exhibit 145?

15 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: I'll resist the urge to use

17 the green pen.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I was thinking about

19 that. You can connect that up with whatever, but

20 we'll wait to see.


22 Q. I'm going to refer you back to 6A,

23 Mr. O'Rourke.

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q. The original photograph there that you

2 referred to as the last supper, is there anybody

3 else in that photograph -- well, let me ask it

4 this way. No. 3 you've identified already as

5 Mr. DiVarco. Is there any relationship to

6 anybody else in the Chicago Laborers District

7 Council?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Who is that?

10 A. Joseph Vincent DiVarco, aka Ceasar

11 DiVarco, now deceased. It was the father of

12 Vince DiVarco.

13 Q. And that individual is set forth here

14 on the bottom, Vincent DiVarco?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. How do you know he's a relative?

17 A. Through my experience as an FBI agent

18 as well as interview of Vincent DiVarco in the

19 course of my duties as an IG inspector.

20 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, I'd like to continue

21 with Exhibit 145 on the relationships between the

22 Chicago Outfit and the Chicago District Council.

23 To focus on the more current officers, I want to

24 have you discuss two crews in greater detail.


1 Let's begin with the North Side Crew.

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Who is Ken Eto?

4 A. Ken Eto was a Korean-American who was

5 a member, or associate member of organized

6 crime. He was a member of the North Side Crew in

7 charge of gambling, bolita, card games. He

8 worked for Vincent Solano, Joseph Ceasar DiVarco,

9 Babe Demonte, Frank "Babe" Demonte, Michael

10 Glitta and John Matassa.

11 Q. Did he testify on a number of

12 occasions?

13 A. Yes, sir, he did.

14 Q. Did he provide any information to the

15 FBI as well?

16 A. Yes, he did.

17 Q. Was that over a period of time?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Did Mr. Eto ever testify before the

20 President's Commission on Organized Crime in

21 1985?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Was that testimony made public, to

24 your knowledge?


1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. Okay. Let's look at Exhibit 4, if you

3 would, which is one of the white binders.

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Are you familiar with that?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. All right. I've selected short

8 selections from approximately six pages of this

9 testimony to highlight to the Independent Hearing

10 Officer today. Let's turn you to -- do you see

11 the tab that says PCOC? It's the fourth tab. Do

12 you see that?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. The first page of that, are you on the

15 right one, President's Commission on Organized

16 Crime? There's a large seal and it says April,

17 1985 on bottom.

18 A. Yes, sir. Correct.

19 Q. Take a look at the next tab, Ken Eto

20 testimony. Do you see that tab?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Okay. On Page 12, do you see where

23 Ken Eto is called as a witness and duly sworn?

24 Do you see that, correct?


1 A. Yes, sir, I do.

2 Q. Let's turn to Page 13 and start here.

3 Why don't I simply read Mr. Ryan's part and you

4 can read Mr. Eto's part.

5 MR. CARMELL: Well, that's highly improper.

6 We have the documents in order already. I'm sure

7 that the Independent Hearing Officer can read and

8 this is not his testimony. He can't testify that

9 this is correct, true and correct. It's a public

10 document.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. --

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand. I

13 realize that. You have some members back there

14 who don't get to see it, and without going into

15 too much detail, I think they at least are

16 entitled to know what people are saying about the

17 union.

18 MR. BOSTWICK: I have done my best to make

19 this very short. I have been through a lot of

20 information and tried to make this as short as

21 possible.


23 Q. Why don't I use -- I'll be Mr. Ryan,

24 for lack of a better way of saying it, and you


1 can respond for Mr. Eto.

2 "Did you, in fact, manage gambling

3 operations for the Chicago Outfit for a number of

4 years?"

5 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes."

6 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Are you now a protected

7 government witness?"

8 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, I am."

9 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Did you become a protected

10 government witness, Mr. Eto?"

11 A. "Mr. Eto: I was shot in the head

12 three times."

13 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Who shot you in the head,

14 Mr. Eto?"

15 A. "Mr. Eto: Johnny Gattuso and Jay

16 Campise."

17 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Who did they work for?"

18 A. "Mr. Eto: Vince Solano."

19 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Were they all members of

20 the Chicago Outfit?"

21 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, they were."

22 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Were you a made member of

23 the Chicago Outfit?"

24 A. "Mr. Eto: No, I was not."


1 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Why were you not a made

2 member?"

3 A. "Mr. Eto: I was not Italian."

4 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Did you have to be Italian

5 to be a made member?"

6 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, sir."

7 Q. "Mr. Ryan: What was would you

8 describe your position as in the organization?"

9 A. "Mr. Eto: A trusted personnel."

10 Q. "Mr. Ryan: How many years were you in

11 this position as trusted personnel?"

12 A. "Mr. Eto: Over 30 years."

13 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Is Mr. Solano your boss in

14 the Outfit?"

15 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, sir, yes, he is."

16 Q. Let's move to Page 15 now, and

17 Mr. Ryan asked: "The structure that is set up on

18 that chart is how you understood the Chicago

19 family Outfit to work?"

20 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes."

21 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Let's discuss that chart.

22 Mr. Eto, at the top, who is the boss of bosses in

23 Chicago?"

24 A. "Mr. Eto: Anthony Accardo."


1 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Who are the two persons

2 who worked for Mr. Accardo in the highest

3 positions?"

4 A. "Mr. Eto: Joseph Aiuppa and John

5 Cerone."

6 Q. "Mr. Ryan: The next level are the

7 territorial bosses. Who are the territorial

8 bosses in the City of Chicago?"

9 A. "Mr. Eto: Vincent Solano, Alfred

10 Pilotto, Joseph Lombardo, Angelo La Piertra, Joe

11 Ferriola."

12 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Mr. Eto, why are they

13 territorial bosses? Do they control particular

14 areas in the City of Chicago and its environs?"

15 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, they do."

16 Q. Okay. Let's skip now to Page 40. In

17 the middle of the page there. Do you see that

18 marking?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Mr. Eto, let me talk to

21 about Mr. Solano as a union officer. In addition

22 to being a territorial boss, he is involved in

23 the labor union and Laborers' Local 1, is that

24 correct?"


1 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes."

2 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Based on your close

3 association with Mr. Solano, does he spend a

4 great deal of his time operating rackets on the

5 North Side of Chicago?"

6 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, he does."

7 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Are you acquainted with a

8 man named Frank 'Babe' De Monte?"

9 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes."

10 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Is Mr. De Monte also a

11 union official?"

12 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, he is."

13 Q. "Mr. Ryan: What union is he involved

14 in and what position does he hold?"

15 A. "Mr. Eto: Local 1, Laborers Union 1,

16 business agent."

17 Q. "Mr. Ryan: In addition to being a

18 Laborers' business agent, he is also a member of

19 the Chicago Outfit, isn't he?"

20 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, he is."

21 Q. "Mr. Ryan: In fact, his father is a

22 member of the Chicago Outfit?"

23 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, he was."

24 Q. "Mr. Ryan: You knew him personally?"


1 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes."

2 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Did you ever ask Mr.

3 De Monte if he really did anything for the

4 union?"

5 A. "Mr. Eto: I asked him one time. He

6 told me that he was a business agent and I asked

7 him -- if he really went onto job sites and did

8 actually -- was a business agent. He laughed and

9 he said no."

10 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Mr. Eto, do you know a man

11 named Salvatore Gruttadauro?"

12 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, I do."

13 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Is he also involved in the

14 Laborers' Local 1?"

15 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes."

16 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Is he also a member of the

17 Chicago Outfit?"

18 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, he is."

19 Q. "Mr. Ryan: Does he report to

20 territorial boss Joe Ferriola?"

21 A. "Mr. Eto: Yes, he does."

22 Q. Now let me skip over to Page 43.

23 "Mr. Ryan: Mr. Eto, I would like to

24 ask you what is the ultimate source of power for


1 the Chicago Outfit; how do they do what they do

2 in the City of Chicago?"

3 A. "Mr. Eto: Being able to corrupt and

4 bribe city officials, politicians, policemen,

5 instill fear in the general public by threats,

6 intimidations, murder."

7 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, let me show you -- why

8 don't you pick up Exhibits 95A and B.

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Can you identify these items?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. What are they?

13 A. Exhibit 95A is a photograph of Joe Ken

14 Eto in the hospital bed shortly after he was shot

15 in the head, in the back of the head, by two Mob

16 hit men.

17 Q. What's Exhibit 95B?

18 A. 95B is the crime scene photograph of

19 the front of the vehicle that he was in. He was

20 sitting behind the driver's wheel and it shows

21 the blood on the front seat from his wounds.

22 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, do you know what

23 happened to the individuals, Mr. Campise and

24 Mr. Gattuso, who Mr. Eto just testified shot him


1 in the head?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. What happened to those two

4 individuals?

5 A. Mr. Eto was shot in the back of the

6 head in approximately February of 1983. He did

7 not die, survived, became a cooperating witness

8 with the FBI, and in July of 1983, the bodies of

9 John Gattuso and Jay Campise were discovered

10 murdered and placed in the trunk of a car in

11 Naperville, Illinois.

12 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, can I refer you to

13 Exhibits 96A and B.

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Can you identify those?

16 A. Yes, sir. Exhibit 96A is a

17 photograph, crime scene photograph, of the trunk

18 of the vehicle containing the bodies of John

19 Gattuso and Jay Campise at the time it was

20 discovered in Naperville, Illinois.

21 Q. What's Exhibit 96B?

22 A. 96B is the body showing decomposition

23 and laying on a mat outside of the vehicle taken

24 at the time of the recovery of the bodies.


1 Q. Had you used these Exhibits 95A and B

2 and 96A and B in your police work?

3 A. Yes, I have.

4 Q. What have you used them to

5 illustrate?

6 MR. CARMELL: I'll object to that.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: There's no doubt that

8 Mr. Eto was shot in the head. There's no doubt

9 that the two individuals were killed. I don't

10 know how the pictures --

11 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd like to make a quick

12 proffer on that.

13 MR. CARMELL: You haven't offered them yet?

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: He hasn't offered

15 them.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: I intend to offer these and

17 move for their admission and the proffer that I

18 will make is that we initially heard a threat,

19 very graphic threat as Mr. Gow was being

20 questioned as to whether that was relevant.

21 Threats and violence are a part of Mob life.

22 It's a part of these individuals' lives and I

23 would say the threat to Mr. Gow that was made to

24 him was extremely real and this is corroborative


1 of that fact. If there's any question at all, if

2 you'd like to stipulate to that fact and

3 stipulate to the entry of -- and the relevance of

4 Mr. Gow's tape, then I will remove these as

5 exhibits. But if you're not prepared to do that,

6 I'm prepared to offer these exhibits.

7 MR. CARMELL: Imitation is the sincerest

8 form of flattery, I'd like to say to the Hearing

9 Officer, which is we're not here to try the case

10 of Mr. Eto's death, nor are we here to try the

11 case of Mr. Gattuso and Campise. It has been

12 testified to that they died. These photographs

13 do nothing more than that.

14 MR. BOSTWICK: They're graphic

15 demonstrations of the threats -- of the violence

16 that occurs within the Chicago Outfit.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, let's put

18 it this way. We are not trying a murder case and

19 I'm not the jury. The issue of Mr. Doug Gow's

20 threat must be corroborated to tie it to this

21 particular organization, or members of this

22 organization. Those pictures are graphic. We

23 know they did it. I'll exclude those pictures.

24 I do not think they're necessary for the


1 presentation of this evidence. I'll exclude 95

2 and 96.


4 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did Mr. Eto provide

5 extensive additional information to the FBI

6 regarding the North Side Crew activities under

7 Vince Solano during the mid 1980s?

8 A. Yes, sir, he did.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are you talking

10 about now?

11 THE WITNESS: Joe Ken Eto.


13 Q. Were Mr. Eto's statements memorialized

14 in reports of interviews by the FBI?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Why don't you take a look at Exhibit

17 No. 98, if you will pull that for me, please.

18 Now, are you looking at GEB Attorney

19 Exhibit 98 which is A, B, C, and D?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. I have done the same thing with these

22 items that you have done with others. I have

23 attempted to be extremely brief and to the

24 point. I'd like for you to refer to Tab A.


1 First of all, what are these

2 exhibits? What are these items behind this tab?

3 A. These are FBI reports of interview

4 forms regarding interviews of Joe Ken Eto

5 conducted by FBI agents in 1983 following his

6 shooting.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: I have a question to

8 ask. Where did you get these?

9 THE WITNESS: These were provided to us by

10 the U.S. Attorney's Office.

11 MR. CARMELL: There you have it, Mr. Hearing

12 Officer.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where he got them from

14 recently, at the time or what?

15 THE WITNESS: Sir, they were obtained by the

16 GEB Attorney's Office and I have seen them when I

17 was an FBI agent.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I want to know where

19 they came from, sir. I am trying to get the

20 source of where it came from. If you got it from

21 a public official, you got it from the United

22 States Attorney, am I correct?


24 MR. CARMELL: I'd like to point out, thank


1 you for that inquiry, this is a protected witness

2 who they are giving 302s. I'd like you to

3 reconsider at a proper time your ruling on not

4 getting any 302s from, quote, these confidential

5 witness statements. We are getting them -- the

6 U.S. Attorney is supplying the Inspector General

7 with a -- General Executive Board Attorney with

8 selected 302s and information which they would

9 contend make their case and they won't give any

10 of those statements which may be exculpatory and

11 won't give any statements regarding other

12 witnesses.

13 I'd also like to note with respect to

14 GEB Attorney Exhibit 98 that Mr. O'Rourke is not

15 the special agent who took this 302 and that,

16 therefore, it is compounded hearsay.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand. I

18 understand. I reached that point as to whether

19 or not this came from, so we can identify the

20 source of the information and it would be up to

21 Mr. O'Rourke to identify the authenticity of

22 this. However, I'd like to know that because you

23 are free to go to the United States Attorney and

24 you can ask him for whatever else.


1 MR. CARMELL: I don't have an agreement in

2 writing which says that the U.S. Attorney will

3 cooperate and provide all lawful information to

4 the GEB Attorney. If they would like to include

5 me in on it. He has it. It is not a point that

6 he doesn't have them. He has had 302s and they

7 can get them.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand. I

9 understand that. I am just pointing it out so

10 you know where the source of the information came

11 from. Okay. You may proceed.


13 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, at the bottom of the

14 left-hand corner of the Exhibit 98A, do you see

15 Joe Patrick Doyle and Mark Ziegler?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Do you know either of those

18 individuals?

19 A. Yes, sir. I know both of them. They

20 are former colleagues in the FBI.

21 Q. Do you also see either Joe Doyle or

22 Mr. Ziegler's name on each of the other 302s?

23 A. Yes, sir. On B it is Joe Doyle, Bob

24 Walsh and Andrew Caster, on C it is Mark Ziegler


1 and Alan J. Jennerich and Joe Doyle and Mark

2 Ziegler on the last one.

3 Q. Are these items that you would have

4 personally come across or reviewed in the course

5 of your duties at the FBI related to North Side

6 Crew and Outfit activities?

7 A. Yes, sir, I reviewed them shortly

8 after they were prepared back in 1983 as part of

9 my duties as an FBI agent working organized

10 crime.

11 Q. Can you attest to their authenticity?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: I move the admission of

14 Exhibit 98.

15 MR. CARMELL: These aren't complete as far

16 as I know, or are they? There are four -- I

17 notice that there are stamps on them, on parts of

18 it. I also would like to know whether Mr. Eto is

19 going to be one of the witnesses who is

20 testifying whether as cooperating or witness

21 protection? Because if he is, then it certainly

22 is not proper to use his 302 for that.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: It doesn't matter if

24 he is. Better you ask about it.


1 MR. BOSTWICK: I was going to say, that

2 would be a huge benefit to you.

3 MR. CARMELL: I have the 302, but it doesn't

4 go into evidence with Mr. O'Rourke what the

5 statements are. The 302 is mine to use if I get

6 a chance to cross-examine Mr. Eto if he is going

7 to testify. You can't use it in place of his

8 testimony if he is going to be a live witness.

9 Is it their intention then not to

10 present this and put this in or to put this in

11 and have him testify?

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is Mr. Eto a closed

13 witness?

14 MR. BOSTWICK: He is not going to appear.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may examine

16 Mr. O'Rourke on this, all other items. It is

17 subject to corroboration. I agree with

18 Mr. Carmell. You have certain parts of this

19 blocked out here and --


21 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, are these the

22 individual -- is this the form that these

23 documents were provided? Are these documents in

24 the form that they were provided to the Inspector


1 General's Office?

2 A. Yes, sir, they were. There are parts

3 of them that are redacted, yes.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: I notice there are

5 redactions in here talking about some person's

6 name. I am just glancing down here. He

7 explained that somebody, the operator business

8 known as the Candy Store, and tell me what you

9 are going to do, Mr. Bostwick? Are you going to

10 examine him on what the -- what is in this 302?

11 MR. BOSTWICK: That is correct. I am simply

12 going to have him read portions.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is he going to give

14 any personal -- I notice you spoke to Mr. Eto.

15 You debriefed him when he returned, is that

16 right?

17 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: So this is simply

19 offered as an exhibit as to what Mr. Eto said at

20 a certain time and you are offering it through

21 Mr. O'Rourke because he was the person who is the

22 recipient of this particular document, is that

23 right?

24 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.


1 MR. CARMELL: I don't think that's correct.

2 This is offered for what supposedly is the

3 compilation of notes from other FBI agents of

4 what Mr. Eto said which Mr. O'Rourke says he saw

5 the original of after it was made, but it is not

6 in the form in which he saw it. Now, with that

7 said, that's what this document is.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't think he said

9 that.

10 MR. CARMELL: He said he saw this document

11 in its fullness -- fullness, I love that word --

12 soon after it was made. He has now received it

13 from the U.S. Attorney in the form in which it is

14 now.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: But are you saying,

17 Mr. O'Rourke, that this is part of I guess a

18 large debriefing document from Mr. Eto and this

19 is portions of what that document was, is that

20 right?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. These are 302s

22 based on the debriefing of Ken Eto. They are not

23 all inclusive.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I presume that. I


1 presume that after that the FBI talked to him

2 more than 10 pages worth?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. There is extensive

4 interviews, but these are the pertinent points in

5 this matter.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: I take it then you are

7 offering it, Mr. Bostwick, as this is what Agent

8 Ziegler and Patrick Doyle -- Joe Doyle took

9 from -- interviewed and wrote their notes on what

10 Mr. Eto said in 1983 over a couple --

11 MR. BOSTWICK: Over the course of a few

12 weeks.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: -- over the course of

14 a few weeks and that -- wait. And we will not

15 hear -- all right.

16 As my prior ruling, you may inquire,

17 you may put these documents in subject to some --

18 as to whether it is pertinent or not, we will

19 wait to see if there is some connection.

20 The question here is I don't think --

21 I don't know if we need to read all of the

22 portions. You can point to it and quickly

23 summarize it, but I rather just read all of these

24 sections. We can be here -- I know there is not


1 a lot of them, but there is a fair amount.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: Perhaps I can just point him

3 to a couple of sections.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: But I intend -- you

5 would like to have the entire document go in, but

6 what is relevant you believe is the part that is

7 blocked out?

8 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct, for the

9 Independent Hearing Officer's consideration, we

10 especially would like to focus your attention on

11 the blocked out portions. It is just that there

12 is a lot of paper in this case and we thought

13 with a lot of those documents that would be an

14 appropriate way to focus attention, but, you

15 know, we wanted to provide the document as we

16 received it. And I would just have him refer to

17 a few of the specific sentences which I can

18 direct him to now.


20 proceed.


22 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, that first section in

23 98A is an overview of Mr. Eto's activities in the

24 North Side Crew, is it not?


1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Let me refer you to the first two

3 sentences in the second blocked out portion at

4 the bottom of the first page.

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Could you read that, please?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 "Eto explained that acting on behalf

9 of Vince Solano and Joe DiVarco, that the

10 individuals who will make the initial approach to

11 the questionable business are Vic Arrigo, Johnny

12 Matassa, also known as "Pudgy", and Bob DeMonte.

13 Eto further explained that if the victim of the

14 street tax was a well established businessman in

15 the Rush Street and north side area, that the

16 street tax and/or the approach would be made or

17 collected directly by Mike Glitta or Jaspar

18 Campese."

19 Q. That's fine. Now let me refer you to

20 Tab B and we'll go to Page 2, and if you could

21 read that section that's highlighted there.

22 A. "During the time period in which he

23 operated the monte game in the Irving Park area,

24 Eto was acquainted with an individual known to


1 him as "Pudgy", further identified as John

2 Matassa. Eto described John Matassa as the son

3 of a present or former Chicago police officer.

4 Eto further stated that Matassa had a friend

5 working on the Tactical Unit of the district

6 covering that location. In order to receive

7 police protection from this one tactical police

8 officer, Eto explained that he provided John

9 Matassa with the telephone and the exact address

10 of the monte game and that it was his

11 understanding that this address and telephone

12 number was subsequently given to the unknown

13 member of the tactical unit of that police

14 district."

15 Q. Okay. Let me refer you to Tab C.

16 I note that there is also on Page 6 of

17 Tab B another blocked out section, but we won't

18 read that now.

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Tab C, the second blocked out portion

21 of that 302, if you could read that, please.

22 A. Okay. Correcting -- concerning the

23 operation of --

24 Q. No. Tab C, the first page.


1 A. Tab C?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. You want the second paragraph?

4 Q. Yes. Does it begin with "Eto further

5 explained"?

6 A. Correct.

7 "Eto further explained that

8 J. Campise also had some influence at the same

9 Las Vegas nights through tables run by John

10 Matassa, Junior. Eto stated that these tables

11 were dealing in blackjack and what was termed by

12 Eto as 'over and under.' Eto then explained that

13 Campise 'bankrolled' the tables run by Matassa."

14 Q. Is that Campise the same individual

15 Mr. Eto had identified as his attempted murderer?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, would you turn to Tab

18 D.

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And read the second of the blocked out

21 portions.

22 A. "Eto stated that Jaspar Campese

23 bankrolled three tables at this gambling

24 operation. Two tables were for blackjack games


1 and the third table was, quote, 'beat the

2 dealer,' unquote. While there Eto stated that he

3 met "Babe" DeMonte and John Matassa. Other

4 gambling operations taking place at this location

5 involve crap, slot machines, blackjack, poker and

6 a wheel."

7 Q. Okay. Now, let me refer you to

8 Exhibit 97 and can you identify what Exhibit 97

9 is, please?

10 A. Yes, sir. It is a portion of a

11 transcript of a conversation, an interview of Eto

12 in the hospital by Special Agent Joe Doyle,

13 question and answer form, recorded on a Nagra

14 recorder.

15 Q. Did you receive this Exhibit 97 from

16 the same place that you received Exhibit 98?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Why don't we -- again, the entire

19 portions are relevant, but I will try and focus

20 you more specifically to --

21 MR. CARMELL: Can we identify when this was

22 supposedly taken and transcribed, when the

23 interview was conducted?



1 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, can you answer that

2 question?

3 A. It was taken shortly -- in the

4 hospital I believe shortly after he was shot, but

5 I don't have the exact date. It is not noted on

6 here.

7 MR. CARMELL: Can we have the year?

8 THE WITNESS: 1983, February of 1983.


10 Q. Let's turn -- unfortunately these

11 have -- it is a strange numbering system. Let me

12 turn you to the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5th page, the top of

13 the fifth page.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. O'Rourke, this is

15 a recording supposedly. Normally the FBI uses

16 the 302 interview method and writes it down. Is

17 there any particular reason why this was -- I

18 seldom see this with FBI taking a statement, you

19 me, you me. Any particular reason why this was

20 done in this fashion?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Mr. Eto had been

22 shot in the head. They were concerned he was

23 going to die and so they wanted to preserve his

24 words, lest he pass away as a result of his


1 wounds. So initially they recorded the

2 questioning so as they would have, in effect, a

3 death bed confession and the information directly

4 from him recorded. It was outside normal

5 procedure but because of the circumstances.

6 MR. CARMELL: What can I say, we have no

7 foundation laid as to -- that this actually is

8 the transcription of the tape. Obviously I am

9 not going to get to hear the tape. I am not

10 going to get to see the full transcript. I don't

11 know what else to say other than here we go

12 again.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I understand

14 that. You may proceed. I am thinking about this

15 death bed confession concept here.

16 MR. CARMELL: I don't know it was a death

17 bed confession. He wasn't there.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I realize that. I

19 understand that. I am not saying it is going

20 in. I am basically just thinking about the FBI

21 taking a death bed confession.

22 All right. Go ahead. Proceed,

23 Mr. Bostwick.



1 Q. The only way I can refer you to this

2 is to say if you can turn to the fifth page of

3 the exhibit, and that's Exhibit 97, and read --

4 first of all, who is JD and who is Joe? Do you

5 see those notations on the left-hand side?

6 A. JD is Special Agent Joe Doyle FBI and

7 Joe would be Joe Ken Eto.

8 Q. Do you know Joe Doyle?

9 A. Yes, sir, I do.

10 Q. Have you spoken to him about these

11 tapes?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Could you -- why don't I take Joe

14 Doyle's place here and you can read Joe or Joe

15 Ken Eto's response.

16 A. Yes.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: How much of this are

18 you going to do?

19 MR. BOSTWICK: That Page 5 to the top of

20 Page 6 and then --

21 MR. CARMELL: I have different numbers. I

22 have a page that begins with 13 and a 302 on the

23 bottom. I don't know what necessarily you are

24 referring to.


1 MR. BOSTWICK: The only way I can do this

2 because the pages are numbered strangely is to

3 say the top of the fifth page of the exhibit. Do

4 you see what I am saying?

5 MR. CARMELL: Where it becomes unnumbered?


7 MR. CARMELL: Oh, all right.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: At this point I am

9 numbering it myself here. So you are going to go

10 to the fifth page, right?

11 MR. BOSTWICK: The fifth page to the top of

12 the sixth page and then a short selection on the

13 seventh page and then the notation on page 363,

14 marked on the bottom as 363 to 364 and then that

15 portion of the next page where the number is cut

16 off. Perhaps the best way to do this is for

17 everybody to simply mark the pages.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I just marked the

19 pages.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: Okay. I have not. Give me a

21 moment.


23 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, can you mark your pages

24 so we don't get confused on this?


1 A. Yes, sir.

2 MR. CARMELL: I don't believe that this

3 should be read particularly because there are

4 things like inaudibles and clears throat and

5 things. This is one where we are not talking

6 about a 302. We are talking supposedly about

7 what was said, we have ums and other things in

8 there, so if you are going to let the document

9 in, then let the document in and not read this.

10 You can take -- everyone can make their arguments

11 from what it says in the transcript.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand that, but

13 if he is just putting it into the record to

14 emphasize his case, he may do it, as long as we

15 don't have some long Shakespearian production

16 here.

17 MR. CARMELL: Well, will the death bed

18 person Mr. O'Rourke clear his throat when it says

19 he is supposed to clear his throat?

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. O'Rourke, you may

21 just read clear your throat.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: This is not sort of

23 actor studio. We are not testing out how well

24 you play the role.


1 MR. BOSTWICK: Thank God for that.


3 Q. All right. At the top of Page 5, do

4 you see that, Mr. O'Rourke?

5 A. Yes, sir, I do.

6 Q. "Joe Doyle: All right. Pudgy, Johnny

7 Matassa."

8 A. "Eto: Um hmm."

9 MR. CARMELL: Very well.


11 Q. "Joe, Joe Doyle: Is he a made

12 member?"

13 A. "Eto: (Inaudible)."

14 Q. "Joe Doyle: Who does he answer to?"

15 A. "Eto: He answers to um (clears

16 throat) Caesar or, um Jay Campise."

17 Q. "Joe Doyle: Okay. Does he ever hang

18 around the used car lot?"

19 A. "Eto: Also could see Vince you know.

20 Well he does not, if anyone is going to hang

21 around, the car lot is right on the corner and

22 just around two doors is ah Jay's club, okay, so

23 hang around, that's where they'd be hang around

24 other than the car lot."


1 Q. "JD: You say Jay's club. What do you

2 mean by that?"

3 A. "Eto: Jay's, Jay Campise's club.

4 It's similar to Oldsters and Youngsters for

5 members only but they have no gambling business

6 except ah pinochle or (inaudible)."

7 Q. "Do you know what the name of" --

8 A. "Eto: The name, no, the specific

9 name, no."

10 Q. "How long have you known John

11 Matassa?"

12 A. "Eto: (Clears throat). John Matassa

13 he's a recently newcomer um he would be um, less

14 than 10 years, yeah."

15 Q. Now we are going to move to Page 7,

16 that little bracket there.

17 "JD: What other people have you ever

18 seen in Jay's club. Joe DiVarco?"

19 A. "Eto: Oh, yes, Joe DiVarco, Pudgy,

20 when I say Pudgy, cause it's John Matassa."

21 Q. "Yeah, I know what you mean."

22 A. "Eto: Ah."

23 Q. Now, if we go to Page 9, indication --

24 first of all, it says MZ on the left hand. Do


1 you know who MZ was?

2 A. Yes, sir. That was Special Agent Mark

3 Ziegler.

4 Q. That's the individual who did the 302s

5 as well?

6 A. Yes, sir, correct.

7 Q. "MZ: If I can interrupt here. Do you

8 know any legitimate businesses or other kind of

9 businesses that Matassa is in Joe?"

10 A. "Eto: Johnny Matassa."

11 Q. "Yeah, what business is he in, either

12 legitimate or illegitimate."

13 A. "Eto: No. He's a muscleman. He's

14 approved you know."

15 Q. "Does he have any legitimate business

16 that he works in as well?"

17 A. "Eto: No. A muscleman for that crew

18 probably, gets ah a a monthly payment, a pay you

19 know."

20 Q. Okay. And just for the record, that

21 doesn't say payment fully, right, it says --

22 A. No, sir. It is p-a-y-m-e.

23 Q. "MZ: Do you have any business

24 dealings at all with him, any kind of dealing


1 business with him that (inaudible)"

2 A. "Eto: With Johnny Matassa?"

3 Q. "Yeah."

4 A. "Eto: No."

5 Q. "No."

6 A. "Eto: I don't have with any of them,

7 if I would have any business dealing it would be

8 with Vince, okay."

9 Q. "Okay."

10 A. "Eto: (Clears throat) These are all

11 part of his crew, that's ah Johnny Matassa and

12 Dave, and all of them."

13 Q. "Give me a round figure Joe on how

14 many people would work for Vince Solano."

15 A. "Eto: The crew."

16 Q. "Well you have the immediate crew like

17 DiVarco and Arnold and you and then other people

18 would run sit in wire rooms, run messages and

19 errands, collect on juice loans."

20 A. "Eto: His immediate, his immediate

21 crew would be one and then from there it would

22 branch out, okay, like I'm, ah ah one of his

23 crew, okay."

24 Q. "Um hmm."


1 A. "(Inaudible)".

2 Q. I am sorry. That's you.

3 A. "(Inaudible). I have had several

4 people working for me, but they're working for

5 me, they don't pass me."

6 Q. "I understand."

7 A. "Eto: (Inaudible). So I don't

8 consider that they are working for Vince Solano

9 or um, that they're his people or any as such."

10 Q. "Okay."

11 A. "Eto: Okay."

12 Q. "How large is that immediate crew

13 then, Joe? How many people would be working in

14 his immediate crew, yourself and Vince and

15 Calvin?"

16 A. "Eto: I think one would be (clears

17 throat) like um, I might have missed some and

18 ah" --

19 Q. "Sure."

20 A. "Eto: (Clears throat). Jay, ah,

21 Caesar, Mike Glitta, Joe Arnold, myself, Babe,

22 Pudgy (clears throat) Victor (clears throat)

23 Ronnie."

24 Q. Okay. There is another selection at


1 the end -- oh, I am sorry. No. That's it.

2 That's it.

3 MR. BOSTWICK: Okay. I move the admission

4 of that Document 97.


6 (WHEREUPON, said document,

7 previously marked GEB Attorney

8 Exhibit No. 97, for

9 identification, was offered and

10 received in evidence as GEB

11 Attorney Exhibit No. 97.)

12 MR. CARMELL: You have heard my objections?

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: I have heard your

14 objections, that's right.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: Perhaps that might be a good

16 time to break or I can continue?

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's see how long we

18 have been going here. We have been going an

19 hour. Reporters, Mr. Carmell? He always puts

20 his hand up when he needs a break. Okay.

21 MR. BOSTWICK: It is kind of an awkward time

22 to break, I am sorry about that, a quarter to

23 12:00. Do you want to actually take the lunch

24 break or do you want to take a few minutes break


1 and go another half hour, or what would you like

2 to do?

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's your pleasure,

4 gentlemen?

5 MR. CARMELL: My pleasure is to, first of

6 all, have an idea as to when you would be

7 finished with O'Rourke so then we can know

8 whether to break. If it is going to be more in

9 the afternoon, then why don't we take a short

10 break now and go another half hour.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: It is definitely going to be

12 more in the afternoon.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's take a short

14 break now. We will work until lunch at 12:30.

15 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)


17 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, before we left off, you

18 had gone over some of Mr. Eto's testimony in the

19 President's Commission on Organized Crime and the

20 substance of some of his interviews with the

21 FBI.

22 Are you aware of whether Mr. Eto

23 testified consistently about these types of

24 activities as associate for the North Side Crew


1 on other occasions?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Are you aware of whether he testified

4 in U.S. v. DiVarco in March of 1985?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Are you aware of the result of that

7 case?

8 A. Yes, sir. Mr. DiVarco was found

9 guilty and sentenced to prison.

10 Q. Are you aware of whether or not

11 Mr. Eto testified as part of the civil RICO case

12 against the Teamsters in 1988?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, was Mr. Solano ever

15 called before the President's Commission on

16 Organized Crime in 1985 to answer any of those

17 allegations and questions about his labor

18 positions in LIUNA?

19 A. Yes, sir, he was.

20 Q. Do you know what the result of that

21 was?

22 A. Yes, sir. Mr. Solano refused to

23 answer the questions, took the Fifth Amendment.

24 Q. For the record, Exhibit 4 which has


1 already been admitted has a section where those

2 questions and answers are given. There is no

3 need to go over those now. That is a part of

4 Exhibit 4.

5 Mr. O'Rourke, was Frank "Babe" DeMonte

6 also called to testify before the President's

7 Commission on Organized Crime about his position

8 in the Laborers and organized crime in 1985?

9 A. Yes, sir, he was.

10 Q. Do you know what result?

11 A. Yes, sir. He refused to answer the

12 questions and took the Fifth Amendment.

13 Q. That portion is also attached to the

14 Exhibit 4 that we have introduced already.

15 Mr. O'Rourke, are you aware of whether

16 Frank DeMonte was ever jailed for contempt?

17 A. Yes, sir. He was sentenced to jail

18 for contempt of court.

19 Q. Do you know the circumstances of that?

20 A. I believe he was granted immunity from

21 prosecution and ordered to testify. He refused

22 to testify and then sentenced by the judge to

23 contempt -- for contempt of court, sentenced for

24 a period of time of incarceration.


1 Q. Do you know what time frame that was?

2 A. I believe it was the middle of the

3 1980s. The exact date I do not recall, sir.

4 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, apart from Ken Eto, did

5 you receive other information while at the FBI or

6 working for the Inspector General that Frank

7 DeMonte was affiliated with the Chicago Outfit?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Did you talk to the sources and

10 witnesses we have referred to this morning?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Do you know the approximate number of

13 individuals?

14 A. Yes, sir. Five witnesses and eight

15 confidential informants.

16 Q. Was there a consensus among these

17 individuals as to Mr. DeMonte's position in the

18 Chicago Outfit?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 MR. CARMELL: I am going to have the same

21 objection as to hearsay upon hearsay. Now we are

22 getting into consensus among --

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think he has

24 answered that question before. Consensus was


1 somewhat disturbing. I would prefer you

2 particularize it. You may say it was a consensus

3 and they agree he was X, but I'd like to hear a

4 little bit more particulars about that.

5 MR. CARMELL: Who said what? I mean, I know

6 I am not going to get statements, but at least

7 they should identify who said what, which one of

8 these 15 or 17 people.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: I see. You understand

10 that there is a danger. I realize that sometimes

11 these persons testify in the past as experts

12 saying based upon my -- upon the information I

13 have seen across the board, but here he is not.

14 Here he is testifying as a debriefer, in effect.

15 So I would prefer you be more particular.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: My intention along these

17 lines, let me just state it, was on the

18 individuals who are more current to be more

19 specific, the individuals who are not as current

20 to be a little less specific in the interest of

21 timing. We can go over these.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: What context?

23 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. DeMonte, "Babe" DeMonte,

24 he is not a current individual. We already have


1 the specific testimony of Ken Eto and this was

2 simply to corroborate that sworn testimony about

3 his position in the Outfit.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: How long has he been

5 gone out of this organization?

6 THE WITNESS: He has been dead for several

7 years.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: He has been dead for

9 several years and out of the organization.

10 MR. BOSTWICK: In the '80s was when he was

11 active both in the Outfit and --

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: I still think there

13 should be some particulars. Part of your case is

14 to the history started from here and went to now

15 and the Mob supposedly was in according to your

16 allegations was -- if you can, Mr. O'Rourke.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


19 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, as to Mr. DeMonte, can

20 you refer to some of those witnesses or sources

21 that you have -- to which you have just referred?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And tell us a little bit about what

24 they said about Mr. DeMonte?


1 A. Right.

2 MR. CARMELL: Let the record show that he is

3 reading notes of his which I won't see in order

4 to give his testimony.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: The record would

6 indicate that he is looking at some notes.

7 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I say that out of

8 habit, it is fine if on cross-examination he is

9 permitted to view a few of the notes that

10 Mr. O'Rourke is referring to in his testimony. I

11 don't have any problem with that.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: These are memory aids

13 or whatever it is?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, just the names of

15 the witnesses because there is nine of them.


17 MR. BOSTWICK: This is just a list -- what

18 he has in front of him is just a list of the

19 witnesses. He can take a look and think about

20 who they are rather than off the top of his head.

21 MR. CARMELL: In that case, I really have no

22 need to see his list, if that's all there is.




1 Q. Maybe we can read back the original

2 question.

3 A. I recall it, sir.

4 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

5 A. I interviewed Joseph Granata September

6 of 1996 and as recently as this month and he

7 identified Frank "Babe" DeMonte as a lieutenant

8 to Vincent Solano in the North Side/Rush Street

9 Crew in the late 1970s and early 1980s and

10 indicated that he knew him from his experience as

11 a member of organized crime and from

12 conversations with his father and his brother and

13 other known Mob members that he associated with

14 as a made member of the Chicago Outfit.

15 Q. Any others that you can -- if you can

16 pick perhaps one or two more that you

17 specifically recall?

18 A. Yes, sir. Leonard Patrick while being

19 debriefed in the period of 1990 through 1992

20 indicated he didn't recall knowing Frank "Babe"

21 DeMonte and identified him as a member of Vincent

22 Solano's North Side Crew, a lieutenant operating

23 the Rush Street and indicated that he knew him as

24 a made member of the Chicago Outfit.


1 Q. There are others that you spoke to who

2 gave similar information to you?

3 A. Yes, sir. James LaValley during

4 debriefings which occurred in 1989 through as

5 recently as September of '96 recalled that Frank

6 "Babe" DeMonte was a member of the North Side

7 Crew, was a lieutenant to Vince Solano, operated

8 in the Rush Street area and knew him as a fellow

9 member of organized crime and identified him as a

10 made member of the Chicago Outfit.

11 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, from the sworn testimony

12 of Mr. Eto relating to Frank DeMonte that we have

13 read, from those sources and others and in your

14 experience at the FBI, do you have a conclusion

15 as to what Mr. DeMonte's position was in the

16 Chicago Outfit?

17 A. Yes, sir, I do.

18 Q. What is that conclusion?

19 A. He was a made member of the Chicago

20 Outfit.

21 Q. I'd ask you to take your red

22 highlighter and highlight Mr. DeMonte on this

23 chart, if you would, and the chart is Exhibit

24 145.


1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Oh, and in addition, it is true, is it

3 not, that Mr. DeMonte -- part of the testimony

4 was that Mr. DeMonte was related to -- part of

5 the testimony of Ken Eto was that Mr. DeMonte was

6 also a relative of organized crime members, is

7 that not correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. As for John Matassa, Junior, who

10 appears on the chart as vice president currently

11 from approximately 1994 I guess to the present,

12 what is your understanding of his position in the

13 Outfit?

14 A. My understanding is that he is a main

15 member of the Chicago Organized Crime Syndicate

16 and he is currently a boss of the North Side/Rush

17 Street Crew having replaced Vince Solano.

18 Q. Who are his main associates in the

19 Outfit, to your knowledge?

20 A. His main associates in the Outfit

21 currently would be -- I don't have that handy,

22 sir. I am sorry. The people that he works with

23 in the union who are also Mob members.

24 Q. Other than Ken Eto, have you ever


1 spoken to --

2 A. Excuse me. Bobby Dominick would be

3 one. Robert "Bobby" Dominick is an associate of

4 his.

5 Q. Other than Ken Eto, did you ever speak

6 to any witnesses or sources about Mr. Matassa's

7 position in the Outfit?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Approximately how many witnesses?

10 A. Six witnesses and ten confidential

11 informants, sir.

12 Q. Let me ask you about a few of these

13 specific conversations and information. Did you

14 talk to an individual named Sam Louis?

15 A. Yes, sir, I did.

16 Q. Who is he briefly?

17 A. Sam Louis was a former Chicago police

18 officer and had been working as business agent

19 for the Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees

20 Union and his father is a retired Chicago police

21 officer, Edward Louis.

22 Q. What information did he provide you

23 with?

24 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object. This is


1 not a protective witness. Sam Louis is available

2 to come and testify.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I will hear it. This

4 is part of -- I want you to particularize this

5 though. We are talking about an individual,

6 Louis, in this union and active.

7 MR. BOSTWICK: He is not in this union.


9 MR. BOSTWICK: I am sorry.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'd like to see some

11 particulars here.


13 Q. Can you spell out in details for us

14 what Mr. Louis indicated to you, the information

15 he provided you with?

16 A. Yes, sir. He was interviewed in 1996

17 and 1997 and he advised that he had met with

18 James DiForti and another individual who --

19 Q. Who had -- excuse me. Who had met

20 with James DiForti?

21 A. Sam Louis.

22 Q. Is Mr. DiForti also in the union?

23 A. Yes, he is. He has a restaurant in

24 Cicero, Illinois on Roosevelt Road.


1 Q. Let me clarify that. Is it your

2 understanding that James DiForti has recently

3 retired from the union?

4 A. Yes, sir. He was indicted for murder

5 and I understand he submitted his resignation

6 within the last week or so.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a recent

8 indictment?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, sir.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Last month or so,

11 what?

12 THE WITNESS: Within the last two weeks, I

13 believe.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is DiForti --

15 what relevance is that?


17 Q. Okay. The conversation you are

18 indicating occurred between Sam Louis and James

19 DiForti, is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct, yes.

21 Q. Approximately when did that

22 conversation occur?

23 A. Approximately two years ago.

24 Q. Okay. And what did they discuss?


1 A. Sam Louis told me that in the

2 conversation that he had with James DiForti,

3 DiForti indicated to him that he was a made

4 member of the Chicago Outfit and identified John

5 Matassa as also a made member of the Chicago

6 Outfit and that both were officials of the

7 Laborers' Union.

8 Q. And this is an individual, Sam Louis,

9 he is a member of another union?

10 A. Sam Louis was a member at that time of

11 the Hotel Workers -- the Hotel Employees and

12 Restaurant Employees Union.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was he, business

14 agent?

15 THE WITNESS: Business agent, yes, sir.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is he out of that

17 union now?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. He was terminated

19 in July of 1996.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: By the current monitor

21 or what?

22 THE WITNESS: No, sir, by the general

23 president, Edward Hanley, Sr.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: There was no --



2 Q. Was this a result of a disciplinary

3 action, to your knowledge?

4 A. No, sir, he was just fired.

5 Q. Did you also speak to Source No. 12

6 about Mr. Matassa?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Can you remind the Hearing Officer

9 again --

10 MR. CARMELL: I only have 11 sources.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: I only have 11

12 sources, too.


14 Q. Did you talk to one of the sources

15 about Mr. Matassa?

16 A. Yes, sir, I did. It would be Source

17 No. 12, sir. It's No. 9 on my list, Source 12,

18 CI 12.

19 Q. I see. You've numbered them.

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. You've got a numbering system that is

22 not sequential in your notes.

23 A. I used their CI numbers and then how

24 many there were.


1 Q. So it is --

2 A. It is Confidential Informant No. 12.

3 Q. Well, from prior testimony --

4 A. I have 1, 2, 5, 6, 7. I skipped some

5 numbers. I'm sorry.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: This is the associate

7 who is the Elmwood Park Crew individual?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: You have described him

10 earlier as an associate. He works with the

11 Elmwood Park Crew, and I think I specifically

12 asked you does he work for a living and -- or did

13 he work for a living or whatever, and you

14 indicated that he's generally on the lamb, he

15 stole for a living?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. He was involved in

17 organized crime activities full time for a

18 living. He is no longer involved.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. That's the

20 individual you're referring to?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's the individual

23 we're talking about?




2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think you had

4 indicated you have spoken to him relatively

5 recently, is that right?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, it is.


8 Q. When did you speak to him about

9 Mr. Matassa, approximately?

10 A. I spoke with him as recently as last

11 week, but I initially spoke with him in some

12 depth.

13 Q. Can you tell us what he told you

14 about -- can you give us the information he

15 provided you about Mr. Matassa?

16 MR. CARMELL: Objection.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Overruled. Proceed.


19 A. Yes, sir, I can. The Confidential

20 Informant No. 12 stated that he knew John

21 Matassa, had known him for many years, knew him

22 as a made member of the Chicago organized crime

23 syndicate. He explained that he had a

24 conversation with Salvatore Delaurantis, Solly


1 Delaurantis, who was a member of the Cicero Crew,

2 and Solly Delaurantis had been made a member of

3 organized crime and was told by Delaurantis and

4 several other Mob members present that John

5 Matassa had also just been made with

6 Delaurantis. In addition to that --

7 MR. CARMELL: Can we fix the date?

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's fair.

9 Let's fix the date when this, whatever it is,

10 took place.


12 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more

13 about the made -- what he told you about this --

14 when John Matassa was made and what the

15 circumstances were.

16 A. He recalled it as being a conversation

17 occurring sometime in 1989, the fall of 1989.

18 Q. And what was the general gist of it?

19 A. That Solly Delaurantis indicated that

20 John Matassa had been made along with himself.

21 He was very proud of that fact. There was a

22 celebration going on. There were other Mob

23 members present, members of the Ferriola crew and

24 associates of Solly Delaurantis and it was openly


1 discussed amongst these individuals.


3 Mr. Delaurantis now?

4 THE WITNESS: In federal prison, sir.


6 THE WITNESS: Racketeering as part of the

7 Rocky Infelise case.


9 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, how about James

10 LaValley, did you speak to him specifically about

11 Mr. Matassa?

12 A. Yes, sir, I did.

13 Q. Approximately when did you speak to

14 him about Mr. Matassa?

15 A. Well, I debriefed him regularly from

16 1989 until he entered the Witness Security

17 Program after testifying in federal court, and

18 then I recontacted him in September of 1996 and

19 again reinterviewed him at some length.

20 Q. Okay. What did he tell you about

21 Mr. Matassa?

22 A. He stated that as a former member,

23 collector, enforcer for organized crime for over

24 20 years, that he knew John Matassa as a member


1 of the Outfit and believed that he was a made

2 member, identified him, that he had heard that he

3 was now the boss of a crew on the north side and

4 indicated that he had seen John Matassa at the

5 Brookwood Country Club, golf club, known to be

6 frequented by Mob members in the company of

7 Jackie Cerone, and had met him on a number of

8 occasions in various nightclubs in the Rush

9 Street area and had had him identified and knew

10 him as a member of organized crime, a made

11 member.

12 Q. Over what time period are these events

13 taking place? Let's break them down. Did he

14 give you any indication about the event with

15 Jackie Cerone?

16 A. Early 1980s, at the Brookwood Country

17 Club, the early 1980s up until LaValley was taken

18 into custody, which would have been in 19, I

19 believe, '89 or '90.

20 Q. How about Mr. Umberto Fillippi, you

21 referred to him earlier specifically. Did you

22 discuss Mr. Matassa with Umberto Fillippi?

23 A. Yes, sir. I interviewed Mr. Fillippi

24 on a number of occasions.


1 Q. This is the individual that was Sal

2 Mango's personal assistant?

3 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. And he

4 stated that he had initially met John Matassa

5 through Salvatore Termini or Sal Mango in 1989 at

6 a company called NCI which provided optical and

7 medical services to unions and to municipal

8 organizations, that his friend and employer, Sal

9 Mango, identified John Matassa to him as a made

10 member of organized crime, a member of the

11 Vincent Solano North Side Rush Street Crew,

12 that --

13 Q. Excuse me. Was Mr. Fillippi ever

14 present with John Matassa on any occasion?

15 A. Yes, sir, he was.

16 Q. And on what types of occasions?

17 A. Mr. Fillippi advised me that he used

18 to personally observe -- he used to cook

19 breakfast for Sal Mango at his apartment which

20 was originally in an apartment building on Grand

21 Avenue near the lake. Later it was moved and

22 they had their offices in an apartment, in a

23 large apartment building, Bar Harbor, I think it

24 is, off of Michigan Avenue and Randolph Street,


1 that on weekends, John Matassa, accompanied by

2 John Serpico and Tom Matassa, John's cousin,

3 would come to the apartment of Sal Mango and they

4 would discuss a company called HMI, Health

5 Marketing, Inc. This was a company run at that

6 point by Sal Mango which provided federal

7 services to labor unions, including Central

8 States joint board headed by John Serpico, and

9 according to Mr. Fillippi, also involved the

10 Laborers' Union.

11 He stated that Sal Mango used to make

12 up regular packages, or kickback payments, which

13 were then turned over in his presence during

14 these meetings. John Serpico received $3,500 --

15 5,000. John Matassa received $3500 per month and

16 Tom Matassa received $1500. He stated that he

17 would observe him putting the money, putting it

18 into envelopes and would then serve the food and

19 be in earshot and overhear the conversations

20 regarding this kickback scheme involving this

21 company, Health Marketing, Inc., to Serpico and

22 John Matassa.

23 Q. How often did Mr. Fillippi indicate

24 these meetings took place, over what period of


1 time?

2 A. 1993, for a period of about one year,

3 1993 until Mr. Termini died of cancer sometime in

4 1994.

5 Q. How often did they take place?

6 A. Once a month, on a weekend, at

7 Mr. Mango's apartment.

8 MR. CARMELL: I assume that hopefully that

9 my objections I made continue through?

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: They continue, sir.

11 They continue. This is not sudden death over

12 time where if you forget. I assume when you

13 began, that your continued objection to all the

14 information that comes in as hearsay is noted and

15 you will -- and I'm well aware of that.

16 What was the first company you

17 mentioned, MC -- not MCI, was it?

18 THE WITNESS: The first company was NCI.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: N, as in November?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, N as in November,

21 NCI.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: What does it stand

23 for?

24 THE WITNESS: I can't recall now.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is that an eyeglass

2 company?

3 THE WITNESS: It was an eyeglass, optical

4 company, yes, sir. They were the target of some

5 newspaper articles when the City of Chicago

6 cancelled the contract over charges of corruption

7 when Harold Washington took office.


9 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, based on the information

10 you received about John Matassa, the testimony of

11 Ken Eto and other information you have and based

12 on your experience in the FBI, how would you

13 classify John Matassa, Jr., as a made member,

14 associate or relative of the Chicago Outfit?

15 A. Based on the information I have

16 received, I would classify John as a made member

17 of the Chicago Outfit.

18 Q. I'd ask you to take your red pen and

19 mark that on the chart, Exhibit 145.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Bostwick, it's

21 about 12:30 here.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: That would be a perfect time

23 to break for me.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, we took an


1 hour and 15 minutes yesterday.

2 MR. CARMELL: Could we do it at 2, come back

3 at 2?

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: We're giving you a

5 full afternoon now.

6 MR. CARMELL: That will give me a full

7 afternoon.


9 MR. CARMELL: 1:45 to 4:30.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: It sounds like some

11 labor negotiations.

12 MR. CARMELL: Well, we originally were going

13 to do 9 to 4. I'll be back at a quarter to 2, I

14 promise.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: The Chairman will be

16 back as well.

17 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was

18 recessed until 1:45 p.m., this

19 date, July 17, 1997.)











5 IN RE: )





10 July 17, 1997

11 1:45 p.m.



14 The hearing resumed pursuant to recess

15 at the Midland Hotel, 172 West Adams Street,

16 Chicago, Illinois.



19 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.









3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,

4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:



7 appeared on behalf of the GEB

8 Attorney;



11 LTD.,

12 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,

13 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:




17 appeared on behalf of the Chicago

18 District Council of Laborers;








1 PRESENT: (Continued)


3 (111 West Washington, Suite 1700,

4 Chicago, Illinois 60602), by:


6 appeared on behalf of

7 John A. Matassa, Jr.



















1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Let's begin.

2 Right after we closed, we got some

3 sort of an arrangement with Mr. Carmell. Is that

4 going to affect this at all?




8 called as a witness herein, having been

9 previously duly sworn and having testified, was

10 examined and testified further as follows:



13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. O'Rourke. When we

14 left off, we had been discussing for quite some

15 time the North Side Crew and the inner workings

16 of a number of individuals. I'd like to turn

17 your attention now to the 26th Street Crew in the

18 Chicago area.

19 Have you reviewed FBI file reports on

20 the 26th Street Crew?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Are you aware of testimony before

23 Congress and the President's Commission on

24 Organized Crime --


1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. -- on this group?

3 Have you spoken personally to members

4 of the Outfit and specifically members of the

5 26th Street Crew over the course of the time you

6 have been involved in law enforcement?

7 A. Yes, sir, I have.

8 Q. Based on this, can you give us a brief

9 overview of the history of that crew?

10 A. Yes, sir, I can. 26th Street Crew or

11 the Chinatown Crew of the Chicago organized crime

12 syndicate has been in existence since the days of

13 Al Capone. The original boss of the crew was a

14 man named Bruno Roti, R-o-t-i. He is a

15 lieutenant, Frank Tony Caruso, also known as

16 "Skids" Caruso. When Mr. Roti gave up his

17 power, it was assumed by "Skids" Caruso who ran

18 the crew for many years under --

19 Q. Approximately what time period?

20 A. Late 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. I believe

21 Mr. "Skids" Caruso passed away in about

22 approximately 1983. He was then replaced by

23 Angelo LaPietra until he was convicted of

24 racketeering in Kansas City, Missouri in


1 connection with the Las Vegas skim case and was

2 sentenced to prison. He was replaced by his

3 brother James or Jimmy LaPietra until he died of

4 cancer a few years ago.

5 The current boss of the 26th Street

6 Crew is John Monteleone, also known as John

7 "Apes" Monteleone, who is also the boss of the

8 South Side of Chicago at the present time.

9 The 26th Street Chinatown Crew

10 historically was supposedly aligned with the

11 First Ward which was operated and controlled

12 under organized crime auspices by Pat Marcy, John

13 D'Arco and Gus Alex, and historically has had

14 influence within the City of Chicago government

15 for contracts, jobs with the Streets and

16 Sanitation Department, city contracts for

17 hauling, trucking companies and so on.

18 They have also had political influence

19 in naming of judges and in police corruption

20 cases historically. This was I think brought out

21 in the case of Pat Marcy's indictment and

22 resulting eventually in the conviction of Fred

23 Roti, the alderman of the First Ward, a resident

24 of the 26th Street area and the son of Bruno


1 Roti, the original boss from the days of Al

2 Capone.

3 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, could I get you to

4 locate Exhibit 69 and pull it from the exhibit

5 box.

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. What is this exhibit?

8 A. This is the affidavit before Judge

9 Balog for United States of America versus Joseph

10 LaMantia, Frank Michael Caruso, Fred Bruno Russo,

11 also known as Fred Bruno Barbara, and Aldo

12 Piscitelli.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe that this is one of

14 the items that has been stipulated to in terms of

15 authenticity. Am I correct on that, Jim?

16 I can continue with a couple of

17 questions while you take a look at it.


19 Q. Is that your signature on the bottom

20 of the first page?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 MR. CARMELL: You are correct.

23 MR. BOSTWICK: Okay. This is stipulated to

24 in terms of its authenticity, Mr. Vaira.



2 Q. This case involved Frank Caruso?

3 A. Yes, sir, it did.

4 Q. Is this individual on the Chicago

5 District Council chart, Exhibit 145, served as

6 the sergeant at arms for some portion of time

7 there?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Before referring specifically to

10 Exhibit 69, can you tell us who Daniel Borak was?

11 A. Yes, sir. Daniel Borak was a -- an

12 employee of the City of Chicago, Department of

13 Water. He was a gambler and a bookmaker

14 himself. He was gambling into the gambling

15 operation being run by Joseph Frank -- or Joseph

16 LaMantia, "Shorty" LaMantia and his group which

17 included Frank M. Caruso and he was provided with

18 $50,000 in juice loan money to be given out to

19 his gambling betters.

20 Q. Did there come a time when he came and

21 spoke to you about this?

22 A. Yes, sir, he did.

23 Q. How did he make that approach to the

24 FBI?


1 A. He approached the FBI because instead

2 of giving out the $50,000 provided to him by

3 LaMantia and the Mob to his betters, he had, in

4 fact, gambled it away and so he now owed

5 organized crime $50,000 plus an additional

6 $12,000 gambling loss for a total of $62,000, and

7 he had provided them with a list of juice loan

8 customers ostensibly that he had given the money

9 to, and so he had to make the juice loan payments

10 himself on a weekly basis.

11 And he was paying $2,500 to LaMantia

12 and the others and he fairly quickly ran out of

13 money, and so in desperation he was afraid of

14 being killed or seriously injured, so he came to

15 the federal government for assistance.

16 Q. Approximately when was this?

17 A. Approximately in 1982, the fall of

18 1982.

19 Q. Now, I am going to have you just refer

20 to this document, Exhibit 69, to the extent that

21 you need to. I don't want to have you

22 necessarily read from it right now, but did you

23 participate in getting Mr. Borak to be involved

24 in monitored conversations about juice loans with


1 "Shorty" LaMantia and others of the 26th Street

2 Crew?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Did one of those monitored

5 conversations take place as referenced in

6 Paragraph 3 of Exhibit 69 on November 12th, 1982?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Referring to that paragraph as needed,

9 can you tell us what happened on that date?

10 A. Yes, sir. We equipped Daniel Borak

11 with a concealed body recorder and a monitor so

12 we could hear the conversation. And Borak then

13 made a meeting with "Shorty" LaMantia in the

14 parking lot of a restaurant at 55th and Kedzie on

15 the south side of Chicago.

16 During this conversation Borak advised

17 LaMantia that he could not make his weekly juice

18 loan payment of $2,500, but he did provide

19 LaMantia with $1500 in marked money which we had

20 provided to him.

21 He advised LaMantia that the list of

22 juice customers that he had provided earlier was

23 partially in error and that a lump sum of $20,000

24 had, in fact, been provided by him to a commodity


1 broker and a suspected narcotics transferer named

2 Ron. Borak advised LaMantia that this Ron also

3 owed LaMantia a $12,000 sports bet, not himself.

4 LaMantia demonstrated his extreme

5 displeasure with Borak for lending more than $500

6 according to instructions to one individual

7 customer. He threatened Borak, advised that that

8 much money came from some other people and that

9 they could both be in serious trouble. LaMantia

10 demanded a meeting with Ron to occur on November

11 the 18th, 1982, in order to seek repayment of the

12 money owed.

13 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, to clarify, are these

14 conversations that are being monitored, are you

15 listening to them as they are ongoing?

16 A. Yes, sir. I listened to them as they

17 were ongoing and we then listened to and made

18 transcripts of the recorded conversation on a

19 concealed Nagra recorder.

20 Q. Were there surveillances that were

21 contemporaneously going on at the time on some of

22 these events?

23 A. Yes, sir. I and other FBI agents had

24 the meeting under careful close surveillance,


1 yes, sir.

2 Q. Did another one of these meetings

3 occur on November 17th, 1982?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Is that something that you also

6 surveilled and monitored?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Can you describe for us any threats

9 that were made at that meeting?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 MR. CARMELL: What is the purpose of all of

12 this? It has nothing to do so far with anybody

13 who had a connection, supposedly had a connection

14 with the District Council. I know that something

15 comes later because I can read, but all of this

16 coming in to monitored conversations involving

17 other persons --

18 MR. BOSTWICK: The relevance of it, this is

19 a short scenario of -- Mr. LaMantia is a direct

20 associate, Mr. Caruso is indicted with him,

21 involved in the same activities. If we get to

22 one more paragraph, we will show -- two more

23 paragraphs, what have you, we will show

24 Mr. Caruso's involvement in this, but this is


1 when we tie individuals to Mob individuals. This

2 is who Mr. Frank Caruso --

3 MR. CARMELL: Are we aware in this document

4 that the case was dismissed against Frank Michael

5 Caruso?

6 MR. BOSTWICK: The case was not dismissed,

7 but we will get to what happened in the case.

8 MR. CARMELL: Well, I have a problem only

9 because -- not with you, but only because, as we

10 know, I had to go back and find that the

11 conviction was reversed by the Seventh Circuit.

12 I think that everything that's relevant to the

13 case should be in the file so that we have a

14 complete record as to what was the disposition --

15 final disposition of the case because you have

16 affirmances in there of various convictions and I

17 am just talking about the Spingola which I will

18 get to later, but I think --

19 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, I can represent to you

20 that we will get to a verdict form in this case

21 if that's what you are after on this.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's get to the

23 original objection. You're looking at an

24 affidavit sworn out by O'Rourke here in front of


1 Magistrate James Balog, at a restaurant, and it's

2 an affidavit talking about LaMantia. Now,

3 Mr. --

4 MR. BOSTWICK: And Mr. Caruso. Well, this

5 is providing background for the contact with

6 Mr. Frank Caruso. That occurs on Page 7 -- I'm

7 sorry. Not Page 7.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Was that also issued

9 for Frank Caruso?


11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Some of this may

12 become irrelevant, but go where you're going.


14 Q. Okay. Can you simply tell me in

15 Paragraph 4 if there were any threats made to

16 Mr. Borak at that time?

17 A. Yes, sir. LaMantia advised Mr. Borak,

18 and it was captured on the recording, that the

19 juice money belonged to other people, he would be

20 extremely upset, and told Borak that if Elder did

21 not pay, Lamnatia would stick an ice pick in his

22 head.

23 Q. Okay. Mr. O'Rourke, can you go to

24 Page 4, Paragraph 7, please. Did another meeting


1 that was monitored and surveilled occur on

2 December 6, 1982?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Did you participate in that?

5 A. Yes, sir, I did.

6 Q. Was Frank Caruso involved in that?

7 A. Yes, he was.

8 Q. Why don't you describe to us what

9 happened on December 6, 1982 using Paragraph 7 to

10 the extent that you need to.

11 A. Yes, sir. There was a meeting set up

12 for a confrontation with undercover Special Agent

13 Ron Elder. They advised Borak to set up the

14 meeting which was to occur at an apartment

15 building at 505 North Lake Shore Drive in

16 Chicago. It was under surveillance. Borak then

17 was observed to meet and get into the car with

18 LaMantia shortly before 8 o'clock at night. This

19 was the same vehicle utilized by LaMantia

20 earlier.

21 Borak and LaMantia then engaged in a

22 monitored and recorded conversation at which time

23 a 1983 Ford Bronco drove up along side LaMantia's

24 vehicle, a Lincoln.


1 Q. Who was in the Bronco?

2 A. Seated in the Bronco were Frank

3 Michael Caruso, and two other individuals later

4 identified, who identified themselves as Fred

5 Bruno Russo, who was actually Fred Bruno Barbara,

6 and Aldo J. Piscitelli.

7 Q. Did LaMantia say anything that was

8 caught on the monitored recording?

9 A. Caruso called his attention to an

10 individual seated in a vehicle nearby and he

11 said, quote, "That mother fucker is looking, he's

12 eyeing us up," unquote.

13 Q. What happened after that?

14 A. LaMantia instructed Caruso in the

15 presence of Borak and was captured on the

16 recording to keep an eye on that, quote, "mother

17 fucker" unquote, and watch that he doesn't make a

18 move. LaMantia then walked over to the Bronco

19 and engaged in a conversation with Caruso and the

20 two others that Borak was not privy to.

21 Q. What happened after that?

22 A. LaMantia instructed Borak to contact

23 Ron Elder, who was in an apartment in the

24 building and tell him to come down and meet with


1 them in the bar which is located on the first

2 floor of the apartment building.

3 Q. Did they subsequently go to the bar?

4 A. Yes, sir. All met in the bar and had

5 a conversation together.

6 Q. What occurred during that

7 conversation?

8 A. Well, prior to the conversation,

9 Caruso and the other two took up positions in the

10 bar where they could observe. Then Borak,

11 LaMantia and undercover Agent Elder went into the

12 bar and sat down and began to discuss the

13 situation. During the discussion, Elder advised

14 LaMantia that, not only knew where he lived, he

15 didn't want him bothering his girl friend, and so

16 he provided him with a portion of the money,

17 marked money, to pay off part of the debt.

18 LaMantia apparently became nervous at this. He

19 told undercover Agent Elder to give it to Borak

20 and he would pay him later, at which point he

21 ended the conversation, got up and all of them

22 began to walk outside into the lobby outside the

23 bar.

24 Q. Were these individuals subsequently


1 arrested?

2 A. Yes, sir. When they attempted to

3 leave the bar and as the other three, Caruso and

4 two others, got up to walk towards them, FBI

5 agents placed them all under arrest.

6 Q. Was a gun confiscated?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Where was that found?

9 A. The gun was located in the Bronco

10 which was parked on the street. Agents looked

11 inside and noticed the buck of a .45 automatic

12 protruding from underneath the floor mat, and so

13 at that point the vehicle was towed to the FBI

14 garage, a search warrant was obtained and a

15 search of the vehicle located a locked and loaded

16 .45 caliber automatic and a second, a .38 snub

17 nose revolver in the area between the driver's

18 seat and the passenger's seat.

19 Q. Was this the car that Frank Caruso was

20 in?

21 A. Yes, sir, it was.

22 Q. Where was Mr. Caruso seated during

23 that time?

24 A. He was in the front seat. I don't


1 recall if he was in the driver's seat or the

2 passenger's seat because I was up in the

3 apartment with the undercover agent.

4 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, you being a witness to

5 many of the situations on December 6th, 1982, is

6 there any doubt in your mind that Frank Caruso

7 was associating with Shorty LaMantia on December

8 6th, 1982?

9 A. No, sir, no doubt at all.

10 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that

11 he was involved in the Chicago Outfit activity

12 for that crew on December 6th, 1982?

13 A. No, sir, there is no doubt at all.

14 Q. Were these individuals, Frank Caruso,

15 Shorty LaMantia, Fred Barbara and Aldo

16 Piscitelli, ultimately indicted for extortion and

17 use of a firearm in connection with collecting

18 juice loans?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Let me have you get Exhibit 70 through

21 77. Just get all those out at once and we'll go

22 through them quickly.

23 A. 70 through what, sir?

24 Q. 77. Why don't you take a look at


1 Exhibits 70 and 71. And I believe these were

2 also stipulated to in terms of authenticity.

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. What is that?

5 A. 70 is a copy of the indictment brought

6 by the Federal Grand Jury charging LaMantia,

7 Caruso, Barbara and Piscitelli with violations of

8 Title 18, Sections 894 and 924(C) of the United

9 States Code.

10 Q. Okay. What is Exhibit 71?

11 A. 71 is a court document concerning the

12 outcome of the trial.

13 Q. And what was that outcome?

14 A. All of the defendants, LaMantia,

15 Caruso, Barbara and Piscitelli were found not

16 guilty of the charges by the jury.

17 Q. After the acquittals, were

18 Mr. LaMantia and Mr. Piscitelli indicted again?

19 A. Yes, sir, they were.

20 Q. I show you Exhibit 72. Do you

21 recognize that?

22 A. Yes, sir. This is a copy of the

23 indictment filed against Shorty LaMantia, Aldo

24 John Piscitelli and several others by the United


1 States Attorney's office on July the 22nd, 1993.

2 Q. Is that indictment relating to the

3 26th Street Crew or what is known as the LaPietra

4 or South Side Crew?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 74. Can you

7 tell me what the outcome of this matter was as to

8 Mr. LaMantia?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. What's that?

11 A. He entered a plea of guilty and was

12 sent to prison.

13 Q. Let me show you what's marked as

14 Exhibit 74. What is that?

15 A. This is a copy of a plea agreement

16 executed by United States -- by Joseph Frank

17 LaMantia in that case.

18 Q. Now, as to this exhibit, Exhibit 74,

19 I'd like you to turn to the second page and

20 simply read the bracketed portion.

21 A. Yes, sir. LaMantia stated in pleading

22 guilty, "The defendant admits the following facts

23 and that those facts establishes his guilt beyond

24 a reasonable doubt: (a)(1) As charged in Count


1 1 of the indictment, beginning in or before 1978,

2 and continuing through October, 1989, in the

3 Northern District of Illinois and elsewhere, the

4 defendant did knowingly, willfully and unlawfully

5 combine, conspire, confederate and agree together

6 with Aldo John Piscitelli, Joe Wing, Kenneth C.

7 Hom and others to conduct and participate in

8 conducting the affairs of an enterprise, as that

9 term is defined in 18 USC 1961(4), referred to as

10 the 26th Street Crew (also known as the South

11 Side Crew and the Chinatown Crew)."

12 Q. Okay. That's enough for right now.

13 Does this conspiracy also include making juice

14 loans and extorsion?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Let's go to Page 4 where I'll simply

17 note that there is a relevant paragraph we have

18 marked out. I won't have you read that. Let's

19 refer on Page 5 to the only other matter that I

20 have blocked here, Paragraph 7. What is

21 Paragraph 7 in reference to?

22 A. Paragraph 7 concerns the original

23 extorsion charges involving LaMantia, Caruso and

24 the victim, Borak, which occurred in 1982.


1 Q. So, in other words, Mr. LaMantia pled

2 guilty to the acts that you witnessed in December

3 of 1982, the extortion of Dan Borak, is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

6 Q. After being found acquitted?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 MR. CARMELL: Wait a minute. Did I hear

9 again part of his answer, did he involve Frank

10 Caruso?

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: No. I was about to

12 ask. Mr. Caruso is not involved in this

13 indictment.

14 MR. CARMELL: Nor is he involved in the

15 statement in Paragraph 7.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: He's not involved in

17 the effectual narrative.

18 MR. CARMELL: But he, Mr. O'Rourke,

19 mentioned him in his answer. So as long as the

20 Hearing Officer is aware of what the fact, I'm

21 satisfied.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: No. I saw that from

23 the beginning. In the reindictment, other

24 activities, Caruso was not in it.


1 MR. CARMELL: Allocution.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: And the factual

3 basis.


5 Q. That handles my follow-up question,

6 which is, is Frank Caruso named in that paragraph

7 specifically? The answer to that is?

8 A. No, he's not.

9 Q. Now, Mr. O'Rourke, are you aware of

10 whether or not Mr. Piscitelli who was also

11 present on December 6th, 1982 with Mr. Frank

12 Caruso as to whether he subsequently entered a

13 plea of guilty in the second indictment?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. I refer you to Exhibit 75. Do you

16 recognize that?

17 A. Yes, sir, I do.

18 Q. Is that basically a virtually

19 identical plea agreement to the one that we were

20 referring to with Mr. LaMantia?

21 A. Yes, sir, it is.

22 Q. I would take you to Paragraph 7 at

23 Page 5.

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q. Is that the same language that we just

2 reviewed in Shorty LaMantia's plea agreement?

3 A. Yes, sir, it is.

4 MR. BOSTWICK: I will move --


6 Q. Let me get you to look at Exhibit 76

7 and 77 first. 76 first, if you would. Do you

8 know what that document is?

9 A. Yes, sir. It's a judgment in the

10 criminal case involving United States of America

11 versus Joseph Frank LaMantia.

12 Q. What is 77?

13 A. 77 is also a judgment in a criminal

14 case, this one involving Aldo John Piscitelli.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: I would move admissions of

16 Exhibits 70 through 77 with the exception of the

17 one that we have not gone over yet, which is the

18 binder, Exhibit 73.

19 MR. CARMELL: Before you admit them, may I

20 say something?


22 MR. CARMELL: There is nothing in the 70

23 through 77 that at all deals with Frank Michael

24 Caruso. In fact, the one item that deals with


1 Frank Michael Caruso is GED Attorney 69 which was

2 the basis for the charge. He was found not

3 guilty in that and, therefore, even to put

4 LaMantia in as far as what LaMantia agreed to

5 with other persons in order to show that an act

6 which Mr. Caruso was later to have been found not

7 guilty of occurred with LaMantia is too remote

8 and is also too prejudicial.

9 MR. BOSTWICK: May I respond just very

10 briefly to that?


12 MR. BOSTWICK: That is not the purpose of

13 putting those documents in. The purpose is

14 to -- we know from Mr. O'Rourke's personal

15 statements that he witnessed Frank Caruso

16 associating with both Aldo Piscitelli and Shorty

17 LaMantia. We have specific comments that were

18 made by Mr. Caruso during that period of time,

19 and in that same period of time, both

20 Mr. Piscitelli and Mr. LaMantia have admitted to

21 being part of the 26th Street Crew and have

22 admitted to being involved in extortion. So at a

23 very minimum, he was associated with these

24 individuals during that period of time.


1 MR. CARMELL: That's the crux of it. To the

2 extent that Mr. O'Rourke claimed that this

3 conversation occurred, a jury found that that

4 wasn't so because they found him not guilty --

5 MR. BOSTWICK: Well --

6 MR. CARMELL: Wait -- found him not guilty

7 on the conspiracy and the only matter in the

8 Complaint which deals with a conspiracy is

9 Paragraph 7 dealing with the December 6, 1982

10 conversation. That's all that's here. You,

11 therefore, have to take the record as it is,

12 which is the jury found that he was not

13 associating with LaMantia or the other,

14 Piscitelli.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: I think precision is required

16 in this and I appreciate these comments and I

17 want to be precise about it. That is not what

18 the jury found, though. It was never put to a

19 jury was Frank Caruso associating and did these

20 conversations occur. What was put to the jury

21 was beyond a reasonable doubt whether or not he

22 was guilty specifically of extortion.

23 MR. CARMELL: Now, conspiracy, Mr. Hearing

24 Officer, you're quite clear the difference


1 between conspiracy and the act. The only act

2 that's shown in the record of conspiracy is

3 Paragraph 7 of GEB Attorney Exhibit 69. Now, to

4 put LaMantia and Piscitelli's plea agreement in

5 to show that they were -- the 26th Street Crew in

6 order to prove that on December the 6th, 1982

7 Frank Michael Caruso associated with them, that

8 is highly improper and is far too remote and

9 there is no other proof in here other than the

10 jury disbelieved Mr. O'Rourke's statements that

11 are in Paragraph 7 of what happened. If that's

12 all you're going to tie up with association

13 through a not guilty verdict and conspiracy, I

14 would hope the Hearing Officer would not do that.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, the Hearing

16 Officer isn't going to do that. I got the gist

17 of the evidence that went in, and the evidence

18 that went in, whatever LaMantia and the other

19 fellows who were convicted were doing, it may

20 have some relationship to other individuals.

21 Frank Caruso, there's one conversation by Frank

22 Caruso showing up, and maybe he was there, or it

23 might have been a social visit, but we can

24 certainly look at that and examine that for


1 whatever it was, but I don't think we can argue

2 from an inference that he was in a conspiracy

3 with these -- you can't take it from that.

4 So I'll tell you what, I will, as I

5 said earlier, I will admit the documents, but

6 there is no inference that goes from the fact the

7 other two gentlemen were convicted. I think

8 you're stuck with an argument that he showed up

9 one afternoon with some other fellows and they

10 had this conversation at a hotel. The inference

11 that Mr. Carmell says that can be taken I don't

12 think can, at least based upon that evidence.

13 So your objection is well taken. I

14 have noted that. I will admit the documents, but

15 not for the purpose of what he -- but he may

16 argue other reasons why they're relevant. I'll

17 admit them.

18 (WHEREUPON, said documents,

19 previously marked GEB Attorney

20 Exhibit Nos. 70, 71, 72, 74, 75,

21 76, 77, for identification, were

22 offered and received in evidence.)


24 Q. Prior to the indictment that we've


1 been talking about, that second indictment of

2 Aldo Piscitelli and Shorty LaMantia, did the FBI

3 conduct an investigation into the activities of

4 the 26th Street Crew?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. As part of this investigation, were

7 applications for interception of telephone

8 conversations of the 26th Street Crew associates

9 and members made?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Did the FBI prepare affidavits in

12 support of these applications?

13 A. Yes, sir, they did.

14 Q. Did you provide information for these

15 applications?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: The applications are

18 what, Title 3 surveillance?

19 THE WITNESS: Application for Title 3,

20 installation.


22 Q. Were a series of orders granted by the

23 District Court authorizing the interception of

24 wire communications of associates and members of


1 the 26th Street Crew?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. All right. Take a look at the binder

4 which is marked Exhibit 73. This is a selection

5 of a much larger document. From this, only a

6 portion of it is highlighted, but I wanted to

7 provide at least the full documents that we

8 selected.

9 Mr. O'Rourke, are these items, these

10 Title 3 affidavits and search warrants,

11 et cetera, normally under seal?

12 A. Yes, sir, they are.

13 Q. Why is this -- how is it that you have

14 this, or these, I should say?

15 A. My understanding is they were attached

16 to a request for a suppression filed by LaMantia

17 and, therefore, became part of the court record

18 and were obtained from the Clerk of the Court,

19 United States District Court.

20 Q. So you can go down and get these out

21 of the court records?

22 A. Yes, sir, that's right.

23 Q. And, in fact, that's what we did?

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: In other words, there

2 was a trial of LaMantia, a criminal trial, he

3 filed a motion to suppress, am I correct,

4 suppress the affidavits -- I mean suppress the

5 information that resulted from the installation

6 of this bug and he obtained these during that

7 process and attached these documents to his

8 motion to suppress and that, therefore, they

9 became part of the record, am I right?

10 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct. And I can

11 even clarify --

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: That probably was in

13 what criminal number? The wire taps always have

14 a C number. What criminal number? Is that part

15 of these original --

16 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe if you look at the

17 application behind Tab 1, you'll get a C number

18 there.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't want the C

20 number. I want the criminal number.

21 MR. BOSTWICK: The criminal number? I'm

22 sorry. The court case, the federal criminal

23 court case?

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Maybe I'm mistaken.


1 Perhaps I'm mistaken.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: In other words, this is

3 the -- you have it right all the way up to the

4 end, but this may explain it further. This is

5 the appendix of the exhibit to the motion to

6 suppress in 93 Criminal 523-01.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's what I was

8 looking for.

9 MR. BOSTWICK: And that's the first page. I

10 didn't attach the motion and I didn't attach a

11 number of the exhibits. It's a much, much larger

12 attachment. There were three binders, three

13 volumes of exhibits as an appendix, but I

14 attached a few of these.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Simply for

16 clarification, the criminal case with the number

17 you mentioned, and the C number, 87 C 7647, is

18 the number that was originally given to the

19 application for the electronic surveillance?

20 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct. I'd move its

21 admission on that -- you know, on all those

22 grounds.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, let's hear what

24 it's about first.



2 THE HEARING OFFICER: What are we talking

3 about here? There's a load of material here.

4 MR. BOSTWICK: Should we go through it?

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tell me what we're

6 after here. He made a motion to suppress and --

7 MR. BOSTWICK: We have two applications.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: These are affidavits

9 written by -- made by --

10 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, No. 1 is the

11 application.


13 application.

14 MR. BOSTWICK: No. 2 is the affidavit for

15 the first application. It's a lengthy affidavit

16 by the FBI and it's going to contain a number of

17 statements specifically related to Frank Caruso

18 and his involvement in the 26th Street Crew from

19 a number of witnesses and informants. No. 3 --

20 which I have highlighted. I've tried to select

21 those portions which specifically would relate to

22 Frank Caruso in that affidavit.

23 No. 3 is the order that authorizes

24 those, the wire tap, from the -- as a result of


1 the affidavit. No. 4 is a second application for

2 a wire tap. No. 5 is a subsequent affidavit

3 which is basically a follow-up affidavit by the

4 same agent which contains transcripts of tape

5 recorded conversations, including Frank Caruso.

6 No. 6 is -- let's see. 6 is the second order

7 that was entered as a result of that second

8 application. And No. 6 through 9 are periodic

9 reports to the Court regarding specific

10 conversations that would support the continued

11 use of the wire taps which specifically include

12 Frank Caruso and there's references to Bruno

13 Caruso as well. And these are publicly available

14 documents.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand that. Is

16 it your intention to go through here,

17 Mr. Bostwick, and tell me what applies to Mike

18 Caruso?

19 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes. I'd say there is maybe

20 15 references in Tab No. 2, Tab No. 2, maybe four

21 or five references in Tab No. 4 and a few select

22 references in 7, 8 and 9 that are specifically

23 related to the individuals on the Chicago

24 District Council chart.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't we do this.

2 Instead of you wandering through here, can I find

3 it if I look at them?


5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't you just

6 take ten minutes and let me glance through it and

7 then we can argue about it.

8 Mr. Carmell, are you familiar -- you

9 have seen this before?

10 MR. CARMELL: Yes.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Give us ten

12 minutes and we will come back and glance through

13 it.

14 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay, Mr. Bostwick, go

16 right ahead.


18 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, let's go through this

19 relatively quickly. The affidavit that's behind

20 Tab 2, can you describe -- using Tab 2 as a

21 guide, but simply give us a brief description of

22 what this task force was that was put together to

23 look into the 26th Street Crew?

24 A. Yes, sir. It was a task force made up


1 of FBI agents and Chicago police detectives from

2 the intelligence section that were put together

3 and assigned to conduct an investigation of the

4 26th Street Chinatown Crew and prepare a

5 prosecutable case against them. It was headed up

6 by Special Agent Ed Barnett.

7 Q. On Page 3, Paragraph 5, who is

8 identified as comprising that crew by this FBI

9 task force?

10 A. It indicates that it was a group of

11 individuals comprising of Angelo LaPietra; James

12 LaPietra; Joseph Frank LaMantia, a/k/a "Shorty";

13 Frank Caruso, a/k/a "Tootsy Babe", "Toots"; Frank

14 Calabrese, a/k/a "Frankie C."; and others yet

15 unknown.

16 Q. Okay. Now, Page 7, if you can flip to

17 Page 7, I will simply note that on Page 7 through

18 8 there is identifying information regarding

19 Angelo LaPietra, is that correct?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. On Page 9 -- I am sorry --



24 Q. Right. On Page 10 is Frank Caruso.


1 There is identifying information

2 regarding Frank Caruso; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. It identifies an alias of "Tootsy

5 Babe" and "Toots", is that correct?

6 A. Yes, sir, it does.

7 Q. If we can flip through to Page 14 at

8 the bottom, it also identifies Angelo Imparato as

9 one of the members, is that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir, it does.

11 Q. Does he go by any nickname?

12 A. Yes, sir. Known as "Dirge",

13 D-i-r-g-e.

14 Q. How about Page 16, Aldo Piscitelli?

15 A. Yes, sir, Aldo John Piscitelli,

16 P-i-s-c-a-t-t-e-l-l-i.

17 Q. He is identified as a part of that

18 crew?

19 A. Yes, sir, he is.

20 Q. That's the same Aldo Piscitelli who

21 pled guilty in one of our former -- in one of our

22 prior exhibits, is that correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. On the next page, do you see Fred B.


1 Roti?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Okay. Does that identify Mr. Roti as

4 the uncle of Frank Caruso?

5 A. Yes, sir, it does.

6 Q. Was he subsequently indicted and

7 convicted after this?

8 A. Yes, he was.

9 Q. On Page 27, do you see there is

10 information obtained from Richie Mara?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Is that the Richie Mara you referred

13 to earlier?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Was he, in fact, a member of the 26th

16 Street Crew?

17 A. Yes, sir, he was.

18 Q. Could you read part of Paragraph 52?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 "Mara stated he has known Frank

21 "Tootsy Babe" Caruso for most of his life. They

22 were raised in the 26th Street neighborhood

23 together. Caruso's father, "Skids", was in

24 charge of the Chinatown area for the Outfit as


1 long as Mara could remember. In that capacity,

2 "Skids" operated a horse bets/sports wire room

3 located two doors from the fire station on the

4 northwest side of the street at 22nd and

5 Wentworth. The operation netted 10's of

6 thousands of dollars per month."

7 Q. Okay. Why don't you continue with

8 Paragraph 53.

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 "The wire room used to be run by Tony

11 Bova who was assisted by Tony Vinci (described as

12 having bad eyes). Bova taught the wire room

13 operations to Peter "Bush" Caruso and Tom

14 Scalise. After Angelo LaPietra became the south

15 side street boss in the 1970s, "Skid's" operation

16 came under his control. Mara explained that it

17 was always "Tootsy Babe's" aspiration to be a

18 "big time Outfit guy like his father "Skids".

19 He used to put on a black cap whenever he was

20 sent on a job for the Outfit by his father.

21 These jobs were collecting juice loans,

22 burglaries and robberies. Caruso always felt

23 that he was being followed by law enforcement and

24 would attempt to lose the surveillance, even


1 though it did not exist on many occasions."

2 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, outside of this

3 affidavit here and this Paragraph 53, did you

4 debrief Mr. Mara relating to thefts and

5 burglaries that Mr. Caruso was involved in?

6 A. Yes, sir, I did.

7 Q. And that's Frank Caruso?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Could you tell us about those?

10 A. Yes, sir. While in the course of the

11 debriefing Richard John Mara, he --

12 MR. CARMELL: Can we fix the date of when

13 this debriefing occurred?


15 A. As I recall, it was in approximately

16 1980. The exact date I don't recall,

17 Mr. Carmell.

18 Mara --


20 Q. Just give us a brief description.

21 A. Yes, sir. Richard Mara stated that he

22 conducted an armed robbery which had been set up

23 and participated in by Frank Caruso. It was of a

24 Chinese businessman named Peter Pons and it was


1 to get cash, an expensive wrist watch and an

2 expensive ring.

3 They lured Mr. -- the victim, Peter

4 Pons, to a building that he owned in the

5 neighborhood by a telephone call in which Mara

6 posed as a city building inspector, and when the

7 businessman arrived, while Caruso and another man

8 waited in the car, Mara pulled a gun and robbed

9 Mr. Pons at gun point.

10 Q. Was that -- did you ever hear of any

11 other robberies set up in a similar way from

12 other individuals independently?

13 A. Yes, sir, I did.

14 Q. Who is that?

15 A. Cooperating subject witness named

16 Gerald Shallow.

17 Q. How do you spell that last name?

18 A. S-h-a-l-l-o-w.

19 Q. What did he tell you and approximately

20 when?

21 A. He advised us in approximately 1982 as

22 I recall that he was part of a burglary robbery

23 crew in which Richard Mara was a member and that

24 he had been introduced by Mara to a Frank Caruso


1 and that they discussed the robbery of a man

2 named Peter Pons, a Chinese businessman. They

3 alluded to a previous armed robbery conducted by

4 Mara. Caruso then directed that this individual

5 be robbed again, and, in fact, Shallow performed

6 an armed robbery receiving as I recall a wrist

7 watch and an expensive ring at the direction of

8 Frank Caruso.

9 Q. Would you have written those up as

10 reports to the FBI?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Those reports would exist at the FBI?

13 A. Yes, sir, they do.

14 Q. Going to Page 5 -- I am sorry.

15 Staying on Page 28 and going to Paragraph 54, can

16 you read that portion?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 "Frank Caruso set up several "scores"

19 that Mara participated in. The "scores" were

20 burglaries or robberies in the Chicago area, the

21 exact location of which are not now recalled by

22 Mara. Caruso used the telephone at his residence

23 and the telephone at the Hungry Hound Restaurant

24 directly across the street from the "Old


1 Neighborhood Italian American Club" and located

2 at 300 West 26th Street, Chicago to advise Mara

3 and others about the "scores". Mara advised that

4 Caruso was very careless in that he frequently

5 used the telephone to discuss juice loans,

6 burglaries and other Outfit business. He often

7 tried to use a code or riddles in his

8 conversations. These attempts included using the

9 terms "Christmas Present" or "Birthday Present"

10 to refer to "scores". The use of codes or

11 riddles had limited success and often resulted in

12 the use of plain language to explain the riddle."

13 Q. Paragraph 55, please.

14 A. All right, sir.

15 "Frank Caruso has many friends with

16 whom he associates criminally; however, he only

17 trusts those who are related to him. Most often,

18 Frank Caruso could be found at his residence or

19 the Hungry Hound Restaurant. Caruso owned the

20 business with one Larry Pusiteri. Pusiteri and

21 Caruso ran a "juice loan" and bookie operation

22 from the restaurant. Mara stated he has observed

23 meetings at the Hungry Hound involving Angelo

24 LaPietra and other Outfit members."


1 Q. And finally the last paragraph,

2 Paragraph 56?

3 A. After the club was opened at 26th and

4 Princeton (now known as the Old Neighborhood

5 Italian American Club), Frank Caruso, Pusiteri

6 and Shorty LaMantia operated a gambling ring and

7 juice operation there. Mara advised that it is

8 the Outfit's custom to run juice loans at any

9 location where gambling is taking place."

10 Q. On Page 31 here, information from Vic

11 Arrigo, I have blocked off a large portion, but

12 we'll only refer to a part in this testimony, but

13 just so it is clear, we consider all of that to

14 be relevant here.

15 Who is Frank -- I am sorry -- Vic

16 Arrigo?

17 A. Victor Arrigo was a member of the

18 North Side or Rush Street Crew working under

19 Vincent Solano, Frank DeMonte, Joseph Ceasar

20 DiVarco and there was an associate of John

21 Matassa and other members of that crew in the

22 early 1980s.

23 Q. About halfway down that Paragraph 61

24 on Page 32, you see where it says "Arrigo has


1 told agents of the FBI"?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Okay. Can you read that for us?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 "Arrigo has told agents of the FBI

6 that he and one Frank "Babe" DeMonte were

7 sponsored into the Outfit on the same date.

8 Arrigo has told agents of the FBI that he has

9 worked for the Outfit for many years and for

10 individuals such as Joseph "Ceasar" DiVarco, all

11 of whom, he has advised, are well known and

12 established members of Chicago's Organized Crime

13 Community (The "Outfit"). Through his

14 association with the aforementioned individuals,

15 Arrigo became familiar with the reputations and

16 activities of other members of the organized

17 crime community, such as Frank Caruso, described

18 by Arrigo as connected with the "Chinatown"

19 organized crime community under the street

20 management of Angelo LaPietra; and Frank DeMonte,

21 described by Arrigo as the "right hand man" of

22 Chicago North Side Outfit boss Vince Solano, as

23 well as Ken Eto, who is personally known to

24 Arrigo and was known by Arrigo to work illegal


1 gambling for members of the North Side organized

2 crime community of Vince Solano and others."

3 Q. So Mr. Arrigo here is discussing Frank

4 DeMonte who is already over here on this chart?

5 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

6 Q. That's chart Exhibit 145?

7 A. Yes, he is.

8 Q. Why don't you read on Page 33,

9 Paragraph 64, please?

10 A. "On February 22, 1984, Arrigo advised

11 that he personally overheard Caruso state that

12 Campise and Gattuso were killed because everyone

13 was afraid they would talk to the FBI. Caruso

14 told "Babe" DeMonte that if he (DeMonte) had not

15 been in jail, then "they" would not have had the

16 problem with the Eto hit. In addition, Arrigo

17 advised that Frank Caruso is frequently seen with

18 the North Side LCN boss Vince Solano. Further,

19 Arrigo stated that it is his opinion that the

20 "Chinatown" connection was responsible for the

21 murders of Gattuso and Campise. Arrigo stated

22 that on February 17, 1984, he attended a

23 meeting. Those present at this meeting included

24 "Babe" DeMonte, Vince Solano, Frank Caruso, and


1 others. Solano was upset with the limited money

2 the "Mob" was bringing in."

3 Q. All right. That's it for that page.

4 Page 38, please. I am sorry. Page

5 35, there is also information read from Guy

6 Bills.

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Just briefly without referring to that

9 specifically, those items, who is Guy Bills and

10 what's the nature of his information in this

11 affidavit?

12 A. Guy Bills was a member of the 26th

13 Street Chinatown Crew. He also worked as a juice

14 loan collector for Frank Calabrese and later for

15 Albert Tocco and the South Suburban Crew. He

16 grew up in the 26th Street Chinatown Bridgeport

17 neighborhood. His father was an associate of

18 organized crime figures for many years and has

19 other relatives who were associated with the 26th

20 Street Crew.

21 MR. BOSTWICK: All right. How about -- I'll

22 note simply that Pages 38 and 42 we have

23 highlighted portions. I am not going to have

24 Mr. O'Rourke read them now but are relevant.



2 Q. Page 67 -- I am sorry -- 65, do you

3 see that?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. This is relating to witness Ken Eto,

6 do you see that?

7 A. Yes, sir, it is.

8 Q. Do you see the second -- the second

9 sentence. Could you read that, please?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 "Eto has stated that he has heard of

12 Frank Caruso, the son of "Skids" Caruso, through

13 conversations with Angelo LaPietra, Jimmy

14 LaPietra and other Outfit associates.

15 Q. Page 79, why don't you read that

16 bracketed portion of Paragraph 154?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 "On December the 1st, 1982, Source

19 Number 7 advised that Source Number 7 has learned

20 from conversations with associates of "Shorty"

21 LaMantia that "Big Harold" (referring to Harold

22 Mongotich) is muscle for LaMantia. During the

23 spring of 1986, Confidential Source No. 4 stated

24 that meetings take place in the Old Neighborhood


1 Italian American Club and that these meetings are

2 frequently for the purpose of discussing Outfit

3 business and are attended by Outfit members

4 and/or those who have proven themselves to the

5 Outfit. Those normally in attendance include

6 James LaPietra, Frank Caruso and "Shorty"

7 LaMantia. Meetings in the club are for the

8 purpose of discussing illegal gambling

9 businesses, the payment/nonpayment of debts

10 arising from illegal businesses, and receipts of

11 debts arising from illegal businesses."

12 Q. How about Page 89? I am not going to

13 have you read both of those paragraphs, but why

14 don't you read Paragraph 173?

15 A. "Source No. 11 stated that source

16 knows Frank Caruso, was also known as "Toots".

17 Approximately one and one-half to two years ago

18 source regularly attended a "crap game" in the

19 Italian American Club located on 26th Street,

20 Chicago, Illinois. This "crap game" was run two

21 or three times a week in a second floor room of

22 the club. Frank Caruso and Larry Pusiteri ran

23 the game, which had a betting limit of $300. An

24 individual by the name of Mike (last name


1 unknown) loaned money to losers."

2 Q. Page 91, that's the last page on this

3 exhibit that I have got. Would you read that?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 "Confidential Source No. 12 reported

6 on November 21, 1986, that Frank Caruso is in

7 charge of syndicated gambling in the 26th Street

8 area on behalf of the Chicago LCN and also that

9 Frank Caruso is the president of the Old

10 Neighborhood Italian American Club."

11 Q. Okay. I am going to have you turn to

12 Tab 5 now. I am going to only go to a few items

13 here. Page 11 -- first of all, this is a

14 follow-up affidavit, is that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir, it is a follow-up

16 affidavit.

17 Q. Page 11 --

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: When you say follow-up

19 affidavit, is this an affidavit to continue or to

20 start anew another electronic surveillance?

21 MR. BOSTWICK: Actually that was somewhat

22 sloppy. I think it is the latter.


24 A. It is the continued electronic


1 surveillance.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: The application is at Tab 4,

3 so it would be part of the record. I don't know

4 that we need to stop.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: What I am getting at

6 is they will put a surveillance on for -- I think

7 the requirement they put it on for is 30 days.

8 To start again, either you -- what you are saying

9 is that they had to go back in and based upon

10 information that they had received continue the

11 affidavit -- I mean the application, is that

12 right, Mr. O'Rourke?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I believe that's

14 correct.


16 Q. When you are ready, Mr. O'Rourke, Page

17 11, Paragraph 23, what does this paragraph in

18 total, this paragraph 23 set forth as described

19 in that?

20 A. It is the dates and times that James

21 LaPietra, Joseph Frank LaMantia and Frank Caruso

22 were intercepted during the course of the above

23 described court ordered interception of wire

24 communication occurring over a telephone number


1 312-326-5534 subscribed to by the Old

2 Neighborhood Italian American Club, 268 West 26th

3 Street, Chicago.

4 Q. So these are dates and times that

5 these individuals were intercepted on wire taps?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: And what you are

8 saying is that this application here is saying we

9 had the original wire tap, Judge, this is what we

10 found which would give probable cause to continue

11 and start a new wire tap in effect, so now they

12 are telling the court what they found and what

13 you are pointing out to us in 11 and 12 is what

14 they found, I mean, what occurred?

15 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct, with respect

16 to Frank Caruso's associations with these other

17 26th Street Crew members.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: And as I see here,

19 they are describing, meaning talking, that's the

20 extent of it, am I right?

21 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.


23 Q. On Page 12 that's a reference as you

24 understand it, Mr. O'Rourke, to two conversations


1 that Frank Caruso who would have had with Shorty

2 LaMantia and James LaPietra, correct?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Who would have been identified?

5 A. Yes, sir. Well, identified as leaders

6 of the 26th Street Chinatown Crew.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: But the interception

8 shows in the meeting talking, and that's about

9 it?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


12 Q. On Page 14, this references a

13 surveillance of Shorty LaMantia talking to Frank

14 Caruso on a date in 1987, isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir, it is.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: In front of the

17 Italian Club?

18 THE WITNESS: Correct.


20 Q. Tab 7, what is that, sir?

21 A. That's a report to the court which is

22 required under the law on the results of the

23 electronic surveillance.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that the law


1 requires periodic reports depending upon what the

2 judge orders and this is sometimes five days,

3 sometimes ten days. The judge can ask that you

4 report everything if necessary. What was this

5 one; was it 10 days? Is that the court order?

6 THE WITNESS: This is the third report

7 concerning the progress of the interception.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, court order record

9 made on the 5th, 10th, 15th, every five days?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


12 Q. On November 20th, 1987, was there a

13 specific conversation or a portion of a specific

14 conversation that Frank Caruso was involved in?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Okay. Could you simply read the

17 conversation, what Caruso says in that

18 conversation at the bottom?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 "Caruso: (Unintelligible) if we

21 don't think the joint is clean (possibly clear)

22 in a few weeks Leo and I are going to come up and

23 blind some fuckers with a Judo punch. We'll

24 (unintelligible) 'em ( unintelligible)."


1 Q. On Tab 8, behind Tab 8, what is that?

2 A. Report to the court, the fourth report

3 concerning the progress of the interception.

4 Q. Okay.


6 Mr. Carmell, is that your objection?


8 MR. BOSTWICK: Here is what I would propose

9 if it is all right with you, Mr. Carmell, is that

10 we simply introduce the document. I wouldn't

11 have him read this. Is that agreeable and then

12 the hearing officer can take this for what it is

13 worth?

14 MR. CARMELL: Or not.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: Or not.

16 MR. CARMELL: Or throw it out and exclude it

17 after looking at it.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, I have

19 looked at it. It does not seem that reliable to

20 me at this point. I mean, it has some

21 unidentified person on a wire tap and I will

22 exclude that one on Exhibit 8.

23 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, could --

24 Mr. Vaira, for purposes of the information with


1 respect to Frank Caruso, since Frank Caruso is

2 specifically identified on this matter -- well,

3 is identified as "Toots" which is corroborated by

4 other information and if we tie up with

5 additional information, can we simply admit the

6 exhibit with the understanding that if there is

7 additional corroborative evidence, it will

8 take -- you will consider it, if not, you won't.


10 excluding it. If sometime during this hearing

11 you come up with something that you can further

12 resuscitate this or make it come alive and show

13 it to Mr. Carmell and make an argument, fine.

14 Right now I am excluding it.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: That's Tab 9 -- I am sorry,

16 Tab 8.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tab 8. It is an

18 unidentified person to begin with talking and

19 when you get down to -- not what the agent says,

20 but when you actually hear the conversation, the

21 agent's characterization of it is a little

22 stronger than the actual conversation and I

23 believe when you get that far my feeling is it

24 doesn't seem that reliable to me. I'll let you


1 try to resuscitate it, but right now it is

2 excluded.


4 Q. On Tab 9, could you tell us what that

5 is, Mr. O'Rourke?

6 A. Yes, sir. Report to the court and

7 this is the fifth report concerning the progress

8 of the renewed interception.

9 Q. Okay. On Page 4 of that document,

10 there is a conversation between Frank Caruso and

11 James LaPietra, is that correct?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Why don't you simply take the part of

14 Frank Caruso here and we will read this.

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 "Frank Caruso: ... I heard one time

17 several years ago too. The City Brooms?

18 (Unintelligible)."

19 Q. "Ya."

20 A. "These brooms and the brooms on them

21 sweepers. (Whispering). They got a four or five

22 million dollar a year contract for these

23 (inaudible). I don't know no one that did you

24 know. But, you give a guy a four million dollar


1 contract. He give back maybe (inaudible) hundred

2 thousand dollars (inaudible) every year. Now how

3 many contracts do they have that wouldn't even

4 get the votes. The shovels, the equipment."

5 Q. An unknown male. It's inaudible

6 there.

7 A. "Equipment I mean, equipment might

8 cost 25 million a year?"

9 Q. "Inaudible."

10 A. "Caruso: That's what we should do.

11 (Whispering) a minority. We should open up a

12 minority contracting. Hispanic lady...

13 (conversation cut out)...You know you get a, a

14 Dee said to get a kid like Richie Tobar, a solid,

15 a solid kid or his sister. Open a legit

16 company. This company...

17 "(Pat Arrizzi answer telephone in

18 foreground and overrides part of the

19 conversation).

20 Caruso continues: "She started two or

21 three years ago. She's one of our (inaudible)

22 piece of her. She's (inaudible)...dollar a year

23 contract with the city. On the legit. I don't

24 know what percentage they make off that


1 contract. (inaudible)...three million to me

2 sounds, you know, huge. I mean if they make,

3 make 10, 10 percent, put it on the contract.

4 It's $300,000.

5 "Unknown male: Right."

6 Caruso continues: After all

7 expenses."

8 Q. And an unknown male says "Not bad."

9 Mr. O'Rourke, based on your

10 experience, is that -- well, was Frank Caruso in

11 the union at this time?

12 A. Yes, sir, he was.

13 Q. Was he in charge of city workers?

14 A. Yes, sir, he was.

15 Q. What union was he involved in?

16 A. I believe he was in 1006, as I recall.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: City workers is 1001.

18 MR. BOSTWICK: There are two that --

19 actually, he was right, it's 1006.


21 Q. There are two -- two of the unions

22 relate to city employees, is that correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. That's 1006 and 1001?


1 A. Yes, sir, that is right.

2 MR. CARMELL: I think that's incorrect.

3 1006 is not city workers. I just bring that up

4 because the Independent Hearing Officer brought

5 it up.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: I just question that,

7 gentlemen. I know that 1001 has been the city

8 workers union. Maybe -- 1006 might have them

9 also. But 1001 has all the municipal workers.

10 MR. BOSTWICK: This is not the witness to do

11 that. We can tie that up later.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Your question was was

13 Frank Caruso at the time in the Laborers'

14 International -- a local.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: A local.


17 Q. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, he was.

19 Q. Was he involved in Chicago District

20 Council at the time?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: We can find that out.

23 That's discernible.



1 Q. That's right on the chart here that's

2 prepared with the LM2s?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And the minutes, correct?

5 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

6 Q. In your experience as an FBI agent, do

7 you attach any particular significance to that

8 conversation?

9 MR. CARMELL: I object to that.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: I believe that that

11 conversation, if you gentlemen want to argue to

12 me what it means, within your own experience and

13 our own experiences, we can. We are talking

14 about some sort of minority contract. You can

15 tell me what that means. We don't need

16 O'Rourke's interpretation of it.


18 Q. Going back to Exhibit 145, which is

19 this large chart, Mr. O'Rourke, is it fair to say

20 that these two affidavits characterize Frank

21 Caruso as part of leadership in the 26th Street

22 Crew?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Is that, to your understanding, the


1 characterization on the FBI's internal inventory

2 of Outfit members?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And have you contacted yourself

5 additional witnesses regarding Frank Caruso?

6 A. Yes, sir, I have.

7 Q. Have you asked them about Frank

8 Caruso's relationship with the Outfit?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. Can you tell us how many witnesses and

11 how many informants you contacted relating to

12 that?

13 A. Yes, sir. Four witnesses and eight

14 confidential informants.

15 Q. Can you give us an understanding of

16 what those individuals told you?

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Can you tell us if the

18 witnesses are different persons than the -- the

19 witnesses you're going to identify, you're going

20 to identify them by name, right?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: And are they different

23 witnesses than who were the sources in this

24 affidavit? I know you're talking about the


1 affidavits of Mara, it talks about Eto. We're

2 looking for somebody different than the sources

3 in this affidavit.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Well, Mara would be

5 the same.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mara would be the

7 same. Okay. Aside from Mara.

8 THE WITNESS: Joseph Granata, James

9 LaValley, James Peter Basile and William Jahoda.


11 Q. So those are additional witnesses you

12 spoke to who gave you similar information as

13 appears in these affidavits?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Exhibit 73?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. You also talked to sources as well --

18 are the sources different from the sources

19 contained in the two applications?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Some of them or all of them?

22 A. Yes, sir, as far as I know, they are

23 different.

24 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, based on your


1 information and your experience, how would you

2 classify Frank Caruso on this chart, Exhibit 145,

3 as a member, associate or relative of the Outfit?

4 A. He's a member and also a relative.

5 Q. Okay. If you could take your red

6 pen.

7 As an inspector for LIUNA, did you

8 contact witnesses and sources regarding Bruno and

9 Leo Caruso?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. First --

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was that portion?

13 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, do you want her to read

14 it back?


16 Q. As the inspector for LIUNA, did you

17 contact witnesses and sources regarding Bruno and

18 Leo Caruso?

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Bruno and Leo Caruso?

20 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: You're moving into --

22 MR. BOSTWICK: Another individual.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Another individual.

24 Okay.


1 MR. CARMELL: Is that two individuals? Did

2 you say Bruno and Leo?

3 MR. BOSTWICK: I won't do them both

4 together. I just thought I'd save time by asking

5 one question, but it backfired on me. We'll do

6 one first.


8 Q. Can you tell us what, if any,

9 relationship Bruno Caruso has to Frank "Toots"

10 Caruso that you were just discussing?

11 A. Yes, sir. Bruno is Frank's brother.

12 Q. And what is Leo Caruso's family

13 relationship to Frank and Bruno?

14 A. Leo Caruso is a first cousin to Bruno

15 and Frank Caruso.

16 Q. And, again, how do you know that?

17 A. Interview of Bruno Caruso, interview

18 of Leo Caruso, and depositions which they

19 provided.

20 Q. Let's start with Bruno Caruso,

21 Mr. O'Rourke. What is your understanding of

22 Bruno Caruso's position in the Chicago Outfit, if

23 any?

24 MR. CARMELL: Objection.



2 Q. Or relationship?


4 understanding, let's get him to state how he came

5 to whatever understanding he has. We're starting

6 a new person. Bruno Caruso was actually in the

7 office and working, so if you're going to talk

8 about him, let's find out what it is that he has

9 done rather than a summary.


11 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, have you talked to any

12 of the witnesses that you mentioned earlier

13 specifically about Mr. Caruso and any involvement

14 he might have in the Chicago Outfit?

15 A. Yes, sir. I talked to four witnesses

16 regarding -- well, I talked to all of them and

17 four of them had information regarding Bruno

18 Caruso.

19 Q. Which four had information, which four

20 of the witnesses?

21 A. Richard John Mara, Joseph Granata,

22 James LaValley and James Peter Basile, or Duke

23 Basile.

24 Q. Can you tell us what Mr. LaValley told


1 you regarding Mr. Bruno Caruso?

2 A. Yes, sir. Mr. LaValley stated that

3 he --

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: When did you speak to

5 LaValley about this?

6 THE WITNESS: Well, I debriefed him at the

7 time he was cooperating from 1989 until he

8 entered the Witness Security Program and then I

9 contacted him again in September of 1996,

10 Mr. Vaira.

11 MR. CARMELL: My problem is at what point in

12 time all of this great span of Bruno Caruso's

13 name came up.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, that was the

15 question I was going to ask myself, is it in the

16 course of the general debriefing, did LaValley

17 name 100 people and he was one of them, back in

18 1989, sort of generically, or was there a

19 specific question?

20 MR. CARMELL: Or was there nothing during

21 that period of time and something came at another

22 interview or IG, or when he became the IG?

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's what

24 we're searching for and I think the witness


1 understands where we're going. And you

2 understand the particular requirement we've given

3 you, Mr. O'Rourke?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Proceed with your

6 questioning. You know where we're going.


8 Q. Well, why don't you simply answer the

9 question.

10 A. Yes, sir. During the debriefing of

11 Mr. LaValley, which was very extensive at the

12 time he was cooperating, we brought up the 26th

13 Street Crew and at that point he identified Frank

14 Caruso as a lieutenant in that crew. He also

15 indicated to me that he knew of Bruno Caruso and

16 that he considered him to be an associate, but

17 not actively engaged in day-to-day activities

18 conducting loan sharking, or so on, that he was

19 with the unions.

20 When I recontacted him in September,

21 he indicated basically the same thing, that he

22 was aware of Bruno Caruso and considered him to

23 be a Mob associate with the unions under the

24 influence and control of organized crime.


1 Q. How about Mr. -- that was

2 Mr. LaValley, correct?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. How about Mr., is it Basile?

5 A. I believe it's Basile, yes, Dukie

6 Basile.

7 Q. Did you speak with him?

8 A. Yes, sir, I did.

9 Q. What did he tell you about Mr. Caruso?

10 A. This would have been back at the

11 time --

12 Q. First when did you talk to him?

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: When was it?


15 A. I spoke to him during the period 1986

16 until he entered the Witness Security Program

17 sometime in 1988. I also recontacted him

18 sometime in 1996 as he passed through Chicago.

19 The primary thrust of the interview was during

20 the time we were debriefing him and he identified

21 and discussed the 26th Street Crew and mentioned

22 that he was aware of Frank Caruso who was a

23 lieutenant in the crew and that he was aware of

24 Bruno Caruso, his brother, whom he considered to


1 be a member of organized crime, an associate of

2 organized crime, at that time.


4 Q. Well, now, when you said member, are

5 you using that term as made member or are you --

6 you used both terms there, member and associate.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: No, he said Frank was

8 a member and he considered that Bruno was an

9 associate.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. That's right.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm sorry. I misheard you.


13 Q. Did you talk to any other witnesses?

14 A. Yes, sir, I did, Basile.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: That was the first

16 time. Did anything occur in 1996?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, he reiterated the

18 same information.


20 A. I interviewed Joseph Granata in

21 September of 1996 and as recently as July, 1997,

22 and he indicated that he had run with members of

23 organized crime, he had been part of the Ferriola

24 crew, and he identified Bruno Caruso as, in his


1 opinion, a made member of organized crime, part

2 of the 26th Street Chinatown Crew, with the

3 unions, who was not actively engaged in the

4 day-to-day street activities of organized crime

5 such as gambling or juice or street tax, but is

6 with the unions and under their control and

7 influence.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Now, what does he base

9 that upon? You said he's not actively in the

10 gang, but he is with the unions. What was

11 Granata doing?

12 THE WITNESS: Granata father's, Mr. Vaira,

13 was a made member of organized crime. His

14 father's sister, Rose Granata, was a long-time

15 private secretary to Mr. Fosco.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Which Fosco, Angelo

17 or --

18 THE WITNESS: Angelo Fosco, and also before

19 him, Peter Fosco until he went to Washington.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, they both were

21 national presidents, but there is a time span.

22 THE WITNESS: According to Mr. Granata, she

23 was a long-time private secretary and very

24 knowledgeable.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a long time.

2 That goes way back. All right. So that was

3 his --

4 THE WITNESS: And he was active on the

5 street, that this was his information based on

6 conversations with other members of organized

7 crime which included a whole bunch of people I

8 mentioned earlier.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.


11 Q. Are there any other specific witnesses

12 or sources?

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Two more, he has two

14 more, right? You mentioned Basile.


16 A. Basile, LaValley, Granata, and John

17 Mara, who was discussed earlier, and it's in the

18 Title 3 affidavit.


20 Q. Well, nothing about --

21 A. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Frank. Yes,

22 sir. I interviewed Richard John Mara in

23 September of 1996 and May of 1997, and

24 specifically in relation to Bruno Caruso, he


1 stated that he knew him for 30 plus years, he had

2 grown up in the neighborhood, knew all the

3 Carusos, he identified Bruno as what he

4 considered to be a Mob associate, and indicated

5 that he was with the unions through Mob influence

6 and control and would be considered a Mob

7 associate, in his opinion, under the control and

8 influence of organized crime.

9 Q. Mr. -- I guess you have one more

10 specific witness.

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Oh, is that it? That's four?

13 A. Four of those, yes.

14 Q. You said you received certain source

15 information as well?

16 A. Yes, sir. Each separate informant

17 independently identified Bruno Caruso as either

18 an associate or in some of their opinions, made

19 member of organized crime.

20 Q. Let's talk about a few of those. How

21 about Source No. 2, was there specific

22 information that Source No. 2 provided you

23 with --

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q. -- relating to Bruno Caruso?

2 A. Yes, sir. Source No. 2 with regards

3 to Bruno stated that he's an associate of the

4 Outfit, that he was put into the union through

5 his father's influence in the first ward, that he

6 is under the influence and control of organized

7 crime. No. 2 also stated that he meets regularly

8 with --

9 Q. Who meets?



12 A. I'm sorry. Bruno Caruso meets fairly

13 regularly with John Monteleone, current operating

14 boss of the south side of the Chicago Outfit and

15 the boss of the Chinatown Crew, that they meet at

16 159th and Harlem at a Rizza Ford dealership in

17 the private offices, and that Bruno Caruso is

18 married to the daughter of one of the Rizza

19 brothers, and that he reports to John "Apes"

20 Monteleone and through him to Angelo LaPietra.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the name of

22 that dealership again?

23 THE WITNESS: Rizza, R-i-z-z-a. I believe

24 it's a Ford dealership. According to the


1 informant, it's located in the vicinity of 159th

2 Street and Harlem Avenue, which I believe is

3 Tinley Park, Illinois. It was a newly

4 constructed Rizza Ford dealership.


6 THE WITNESS: Confidential Informant No. 2.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: What did you describe

8 him as doing, what sort of life did he lead?

9 THE WITNESS: Well, he's a burglar, cartage

10 thief, associate of organized crime figures for

11 over 40 years.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: So his normal

13 occupation is stealing?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, in the past

15 especially.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: That means he's going

17 straight now you're saying?

18 THE WITNESS: He's not been conducting any

19 crimes in the past several years, to my

20 knowledge.


22 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, what time frame are

23 these meetings with Mr. Monteleone supposed to

24 take place in?


1 A. Recently, within the last several

2 months.

3 Q. And does Mr. Monteleone, to your

4 knowledge, have any prior convictions?

5 A. Yes, sir, he does.

6 Q. What is the nature of those

7 convictions?

8 A. He has a conviction several years

9 ago. I'm not -- I don't recall the details. But

10 he was also convicted in Milwaukee for contempt

11 of court, refusing to testify, I believe, for a

12 Grand Jury and served time in federal custody.

13 Q. Are there any other specific items

14 with respect to the source information that stand

15 out in your mind?

16 A. No, sir. All of them that I

17 interviewed that knew Mr. Bruno Caruso indicated

18 that he was an associate member of organized

19 crime and placed in the unions through organized

20 crime influence, through his --

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: You cannot give me any

22 more specific instances of meetings than you've

23 related so far?

24 THE WITNESS: No, sir.



2 Q. In other words, that's a correct

3 statement?

4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

5 Q. Based upon your experience and

6 information that's been provided to you,

7 Mr. O'Rourke, what classification would you

8 consider Mr. Bruno Caruso to be in with respect

9 to organized crime?

10 A. An associate.

11 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to that.

12 Even by his standards of what constitutes the

13 FBI's inventory of categorizing, he hasn't met

14 that. His opinion on this is certainly -- that's

15 your decision to make based upon at least what

16 this gentleman has said concerning sources.

17 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe he testified that

18 two sources independently corroborating something

19 as being sufficient under the FBI's --

20 MR. CARMELL: They're not of the category

21 that he's testified to to allow him to make any

22 kind of determination that they are an associate.

23 In one instance there was supposedly testimony

24 that he was -- that Granata said he was a made


1 member. He's the only one that Granata says,

2 therefore, you've got conflicting between

3 associate and made and you don't have the

4 criteria that he testified to yesterday, which

5 appears, I think, between Pages 226 to 232 of the

6 transcript.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Carmell, you're

8 right. I assume if we're going to ask him, I

9 assume he's going to say that he has an opinion

10 that he's an associate. I assume he's going to

11 say that. We're all looking for the basis of

12 that. I have the basis. He may say that, but I

13 know what he is basing it upon and that's what

14 I'm going to judge this on.

15 MR. CARMELL: Before he spoke about criteria

16 and he would apply that criteria to the -- I've

17 raised the objection.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I observed it and you

19 observed my question as to what the basis of this

20 is and I assume he's going to say that he's an

21 associate. I will base my opinion upon that.


23 Q. I'll ask the question, which is, based

24 on your experience and your information,


1 Mr. O'Rourke, how would you classify him?

2 A. I would consider him an associate

3 based on the interview with the four witnesses

4 and eight confidential informants.

5 Q. Could you take your blue pen and mark

6 down associate.

7 Now, Mr. Caruso, two more

8 individuals. One is Leo Caruso. Is Mr. Leo

9 Caruso -- did you talk to any witnesses

10 specifically about Leo Caruso and his

11 involvement, if any, in organized crime?

12 A. Yes, sir, I did.

13 Q. And what was reported to you?

14 A. I interviewed Richard John Mara,

15 Joseph Granata, James LaValley and James Peter

16 Basile or Basile, Dukie Basile.

17 Q. Are these the same individuals that

18 gave you information relating to Bruno Caruso?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Why don't you start with the first,

21 Mr. Mara, and tell us when you spoke to him and

22 what he told you.

23 A. Yes, sir. Mr. Mara stated, again,

24 that he knew Leo Caruso, grew up in the


1 neighborhood, knew him for over 30 years, knew

2 him to be the son of Skids Caruso, the boss of

3 the Chinatown Crew and the brother of Bruno

4 Caruso -- or the cousin of Bruno Caruso, or Frank

5 Caruso, believed that he was an Outfit associate,

6 knew him working in the gambling business on

7 behalf of Skids Caruso, with his father, in the

8 1970s, and up until Mara left, stated that he

9 recalled Leo Caruso worked for the City of

10 Chicago as a street sweeper, but was often

11 sometimes not on the job and was acting in a

12 gambling capacity in behalf of the Chinatown

13 Crew.

14 Q. How about Mr. Granata, did you speak

15 with him?

16 A. Yes, sir. Joe Granata stated that

17 he --

18 Q. First of all, when did you speak with

19 Mr. Granata?

20 A. Mr. Granata, was, as I said,

21 interviewed --

22 Q. Will all these answers be the same --

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. -- in terms of when you spoke with


1 these four individuals?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. The answers will be the same as when

4 you spoke to them with regard to Bruno Caruso?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Then why don't you tell us what was

7 said.

8 A. Joe Granata stated based on his

9 membership in organized crime, contacts with his

10 brother and his father, and contacts with Jimmy

11 Inendino and other mobsters that I mentioned

12 earlier that he ran with, and personal knowledge,

13 that he knew that Leo Caruso was a Mob associate

14 and was involved in the gambling operations of

15 the Chinatown Crew, worked for the City of

16 Chicago and in the gambling operations of that

17 organization.

18 Q. How about Mr. LaValley?

19 A. Mr. LaValley, again, stated

20 essentially the same information, that he knew of

21 Leo Caruso through his membership in organized

22 crime, didn't know him personally, but based on

23 his conversations with other organized crime

24 figures, considered that Leo Caruso was a Mob


1 associate.

2 Q. How about Mr. Dukie Basile?

3 A. Dukie Basile, again, operated in the

4 26th Street Chinatown area, was part -- as a

5 collector and enforcer for the Ferriola Cicero

6 Crew.

7 Q. Did he know Mr. Leo Caruso?

8 A. Yes, sir. He knew Leo Caruso, stated

9 in his opinion, he was a Mob associate.

10 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, I'll ask you the same

11 question, based on your experience and your

12 information, what categorization would you give

13 Mr. Leo Caruso?

14 MR. CARMELL: Same objection.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll receive it with

16 the same restriction.


18 A. Based on the interview of the four

19 witnesses and eight confidential informants, all

20 of whom identified him as a Mob associate, I

21 would say he's an associate.


23 Q. Okay. Could you take your blue pen

24 and add that to the chart.


1 We've got one final individual,

2 Mr. O'Rourke. If you could get Exhibit 6, which

3 is a binder and turn to Tab K.

4 A. Tab?

5 Q. K.

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Do you know this individual?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. How do you know him?

10 A. It's James DiForti.

11 Q. How do you know him?

12 A. I know this individual, I've

13 interviewed him personally while I was an FBI

14 agent and was a case agent on a case involving

15 him, interviewed him as an IG inspector at Local

16 5 where he was an official of the union.

17 Q. Are you aware that Mr. DiForti moved

18 locals from Local 5 to Local 1006?

19 A. The other way, 1006 to 5. Yes, sir.

20 Yes, I'm aware of that.

21 MR. CARMELL: Did I understand that

22 question, that he moved locals?

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: He switched his book,

24 yes. Is that what you're saying?


1 MR. CARMELL: That he transferred

2 membership, is that what he's saying? It sounded

3 like the whole load went from one place to

4 another. It's just a word of art for our people.

5 MR. BOSTWICK: Moved from one local.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: He changed his book is

7 what you want to say?


9 THE HEARING OFFICER: So he's now in 5 and

10 he used to be in 1006?

11 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.


13 Q. Well, let me ask the question. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir. He was a business agent in

16 Local 1006 and then he apparently transferred and

17 became an official of Local 5 out in Chicago

18 Heights.

19 Q. Is that information something you

20 found out before you became a LIUNA Inspector

21 General?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. How did you find that out?

24 A. Confidential informant, specifically


1 Confidential Informant No. 5 informed me at that

2 time that --

3 Q. At what time?

4 A. I don't recall the exact. I believe

5 it was in early 1990s, '94, '93, '94.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's something

7 you --

8 MR. BOSTWICK: Right. Actually, we also

9 have the charts we've already admitted which has

10 those time frames.


12 Q. But I'm asking you from your memory,

13 Mr. O'Rourke, approximately when did you learn

14 this information?

15 A. Well, it would have been right about

16 the time, or at the exact -- shortly after he, in

17 fact, switched from Local 1006 to Local 5 because

18 I checked it out based on the informant's

19 information and discovered that, in fact, James

20 DiForti had become an official of Local 5 having

21 been previously a business agent in Local 1006.

22 Q. What did the source indicate about the

23 reasons for that move, if any?

24 A. The informant stated that Jimmy


1 DiForti was a lieutenant reporting to John

2 Monteleone, that he was in charge of gambling and

3 juice and street tax collections for the 26th

4 Street Chinatown Crew, a long-time member of that

5 crew, and also involved with the Cicero Crew,

6 that both had been placed under John Monteleone

7 and that DiForti being a trusted lieutenant had

8 been dispatched on orders of John Monteleone out

9 to Chicago Heights to take over Local 5 and to

10 conduct organized crime operations in the south

11 suburban, Chicago Heights area.

12 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did there come a time

13 when you obtained additional information about

14 Mr. DiForti while at the FBI from Mr. Frank

15 Zischke?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 MR. CARMELL: Who?


19 Q. Can you spell the last name?

20 A. Yes, sir. His name is Zischke,

21 Z-i-s-c-h-k-e.

22 Q. When did you receive that

23 information?

24 A. He was the case agent on a case that


1 was being run by the Tampa division involving an

2 armed -- organized crime related armed robbery

3 group consisting of Robert Siegel, John Evans,

4 Walter Zischke, that's Wally, Wally Zischke, and

5 others, and at one point, Walter Zischke and John

6 Evans -- or Walter Zischke began to cooperate

7 with the FBI agents in Tampa. He advised them

8 that he had information that one of his partners,

9 John Evans of Cicero, Illinois, had been directly

10 involved as a witness in a homicide which

11 occurred in Chicago in February of 1988 and that

12 a member of the 26th Street -- or a member of

13 organized crime had been the killer and

14 identified him as James DiForti.

15 Q. Did Mr. Zischke mention anything about

16 Mr. DiForti's organized crime ties?

17 A. Yes, sir. Zischke advised agents of

18 the FBI that John Evans and Zischke and Jimmy

19 DiForti had been partners in a series of

20 burglaries. In fact, he bragged that Jimmy

21 DiForti used his union car, Laborers' Union car

22 to go on these scores which were commercial

23 burglaries of -- in the suburbs of Chicago.

24 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, are you aware that


1 Mr. DiForti was recently arrested for murder?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Do you know that the theft was

4 reported in the press?

5 A. Yes, sir, it was.

6 Q. Let me show you Exhibits 84 and 85, if

7 I can.

8 MR. CARMELL: I would like to know the

9 relevance of what the press says?

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: I assume you are

11 trying to indicate that he was arrested for

12 murder, and outside I guess of just telling us

13 about it, if a newspaper article says he was

14 arrested and for that sake we can take it.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: We don't even need to. Why

16 don't you forget it, Exhibit 85. We will just go

17 with Exhibit 84. Exhibit 85 was the press

18 report. Let's go to Exhibit 84.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: I assume that it

20 occurred. At least the press is reporting that,

21 right?


23 Q. What is Exhibit 84?

24 A. Exhibit 84 is a copy of the arrest


1 report regarding James A. DiForti by the Chicago

2 police.

3 Q. Is this the Mr. DiForti that appears

4 on the Chicago District Council chart, Exhibit

5 145, under the first column?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 MR. BOSTWICK: I move the admission of

8 Exhibit 84.


10 (WHEREUPON, said document,

11 previously marked GEB Attorney

12 Exhibit No. 84, for

13 identification, was offered and

14 received in evidence as GEB

15 Attorney Exhibit No. 84.)

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the status of

17 this, gentlemen? It is a very recent arrest

18 complaint for a murder back ten years ago?

19 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.

20 MR. CARMELL: I don't know of an indictment

21 yet.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't know if there

23 is a -- in the state system, the arrest comes

24 first and they proceed to indict and whatever.


1 All right. At least we know there has been an

2 arrest. Is he out on bail?

3 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe so, your Honor. I

4 can't provide you with testimony to that effect

5 at the moment.

6 MR. CARMELL: It is my understanding that he

7 is.

8 MR. BOSTWICK: Yeah, that's my

9 understanding.


11 Q. Well, Mr. O'Rourke, do you know what

12 the current status is?

13 A. No, sir, I don't know what his current

14 status is. He was being held on a million

15 dollars bond the last time I checked with the

16 state's attorney's office.

17 Q. Are you positive of that figure?

18 A. I believe. That's what I was told. I

19 have no direct knowledge. I haven't looked at

20 the court records.

21 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, did you personally

22 interview John Evans regarding the murder of

23 Mr. DiForti?

24 A. Yes, sir, I did.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Take us back here.

2 John Evans and DiForti were involved in something

3 in Florida, is that what you are saying?

4 THE WITNESS: No, sir. John Evans and

5 Walter Zischke and several others were indicted

6 by a grand jury in Florida for racketeering and

7 Hobbs Act armed robbery and interstate

8 transportation of stolen property. John Evans

9 became a fugitive in Chicago. He was living in

10 Cicero and according to Walter Zischke, he had

11 information about this murder which had been

12 conducted by James DiForti.


14 THE WITNESS: The murder had occurred here.

15 He was going to be arrested for racketeering on a

16 Florida warrant.


18 THE WITNESS: No, sir. DiForti was not

19 involved in the federal case.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: So what you are saying

21 is that Evans and Zischke were involved in this

22 incident in Florida?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Evans becomes a


1 fugitive? He is up here?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Zischke starts to

4 cooperate, tells you where Evans is and that

5 Evans has some information about DiForti.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, about a murder that

7 happened in 1988 involving DiForti.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I follow you.


10 Q. The subsequent question is did you

11 personally speak to Mr. John Evans regarding a

12 murder?

13 A. Yes, sir. I located John Evans,

14 placed him under arrest based on the warrant and

15 then we interviewed him concerning --

16 MR. CARMELL: I have the same objection to

17 all of these people so I don't have to keep

18 repeating it.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: I thought your

20 objection is that you want a time?

21 MR. CARMELL: No. I just think that at a

22 certain time I better renew, make sure that we

23 are all on the same page. We are okay?

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: We are okay.


1 Objection is overruled. It is noted. I thought

2 your objection is also you'd like to know when

3 this event occurred.

4 MR. CARMELL: I was going to ask you to ask

5 him that.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: I will ask you to ask

7 him that.


9 Q. When -- the best way to do it maybe is

10 to let me ask one or two more questions at the

11 start.

12 Did you obtain permission from the

13 State's Attorney's Office prosecuting this case

14 to use this statement in this proceeding?

15 A. Yes, sir, I did.

16 Q. Can I turn you to Exhibit 83. What is

17 the date on that document, GEB Attorney Exhibit

18 83?

19 A. December the 8th, 1993.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Question I want to ask

21 here, is this a statement you took December the

22 8th, 1993?

23 MR. CARMELL: I don't know that he took it.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Somebody took this,


1 but the question is --

2 MR. CARMELL: You are correct, his name is

3 on there.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: If the question is

5 this particular statement was given to the

6 State's Attorney --

7 THE WITNESS: It was taken in the course

8 of -- it was taken by myself when I was an FBI

9 agent, sir. And then eventually the case because

10 it involved a murder was transferred by the U.S.

11 Attorney's Office to the State's Attorney's

12 Office for prosecution and they are the ones who

13 have arrested Mr. DiForti.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: So if I understood,

15 they arrested DiForti, the State's Attorney here,

16 and this document came from the State's

17 Attorney's files I guess now?



20 Q. This document is something that you

21 went over at the State's Attorney's Office and

22 asked permission to use it?

23 A. Yes, sir. They indicated that we

24 could -- as long as we stayed within the


1 boundaries of the document, they had no

2 objections to us testifying to it in the

3 hearing.

4 Q. Did you write this statement? Is this

5 your handwriting?

6 A. Yes, sir, it is.

7 Q. What is it based on?

8 A. It was based on the interview of John

9 Robert Evans on the evening of December the 8th,

10 1993 with regards to his knowledge of the murder

11 of William Benham who was killed in 1988.

12 Q. On the last page of the document is

13 your signature present?

14 A. Yes, sir, it is.

15 Q. And who else's signatures are there?

16 A. Special Agent Michael M. Cole who was

17 my partner at the time we arrested John Robert

18 Evans.

19 Q. Anybody else?

20 A. Yes, sir. John Evans initialled each

21 page, read over and initialled each page and

22 signed the document and put the date down,

23 12/8/93.

24 Q. And you witnessed that?


1 A. Yes, I did.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Vaira, this is a

3 relatively -- first of all, I would move the

4 admission of the document. Second of all, it is

5 relatively short and relevant. I'd ask that

6 Mr. O'Rourke simply read it starting with the

7 second paragraph.

8 MR. CARMELL: It is not relevant to this

9 case. It deals with his -- Mr. Evans recounting

10 of an incident that relates now to a murder

11 charge which there had been no indictment on,

12 there has been no preliminary hearing that I know

13 of, there has been nothing to the grand jury. It

14 doesn't have anything to do at this time whether

15 Mr. DiForti at the time of the Chicago District

16 Council is liable for this. There is no act here

17 that has been proved that would come out to an

18 act of racketeering. We are not at that stage,

19 Mr. Vaira.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: I take issue with almost

21 every word of that statement. I don't know how a

22 piece of information could be more relevant to a

23 hearing relating to organized crime and an

24 individual who is an officer, who is the


1 coordinator of committees on the Chicago District

2 Council as well as a delegate at the time he

3 commits a murder.

4 MR. CARMELL: You make that statement that

5 he did commit it and this person is saying that

6 certain circumstances. That is for the court to

7 have right now. This is a statement of an

8 incident in 1988 which is written in 1993 and

9 appears in 1997, and it relates to a matter which

10 is now pending in the judicial system, not even

11 having found whether there is probable cause to

12 hold Mr. DiForti over to the grand jury, and from

13 this it is supposed to be read into the record as

14 to what this person says happened that evening.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: I would be more than happy to

16 not read it into the record, just simply admit

17 it, if that's something you would prefer.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's not read it into

19 the record. It is too long to do so. It stands

20 for what one person has said. If something

21 occurs that would corroborate it otherwise, we

22 can certainly take O'Rourke's word that he took

23 the statement and we will read it and see if it

24 is corroborated in some fashion. I will admit


1 it.

2 (WHEREUPON, said document,

3 previously marked GEB Attorney

4 Exhibit No. 83, for

5 identification, was offered and

6 received in evidence as GEB

7 Attorney Exhibit No. 83.).


9 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, I have one final matter

10 for you and that's Exhibit 6. I just want to

11 make sure that we had gone over each one of these

12 photographs so that you can identify them before

13 other witnesses take a look at them.

14 Can you -- you have identified the

15 individuals in 6A, you have not taken a look at

16 6B. Would you do so now and indicate who that

17 is?

18 A. Yes, sir. Gus Alex.

19 Q. And you did do 6C. Can you identify

20 6D?

21 A. Yes. Frank Tony Caruso, also known as

22 "Skids" Caruso.

23 Q. Exhibit 6E?

24 A. Bruno Caruso.


1 Q. Exhibit 6F?

2 A. Frank Michael Caruso, "Tootsy Babe"

3 Caruso.

4 Q. 6G?

5 A. Leo Caruso.

6 Q. 6H?

7 A. Another photograph of Bruno -- or Leo

8 Caruso.

9 Q. 6I?

10 A. This is -- let me think. Richie

11 Catazone, also known as "Richie the Cat".

12 Q. 6J?

13 A. Marco D'Amico.

14 Q. 6K you have identified. 6L?

15 A. This is Ernest Kumerow.

16 Q. 6M?

17 A. Angelo LaPietra.

18 Q. 6N?

19 A. John Matassa, Junior.

20 Q. Oh, I am sorry. That's correct. I

21 thought we were on another one.

22 6O?

23 A. Another photograph of John Matassa,

24 Junior.


1 MR. BOSTWICK: I move admission of Exhibit

2 6.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I will admit it.

4 (WHEREUPON, said document,

5 previously marked GEB Attorney

6 Exhibit No. 6, for

7 identification, was offered and

8 received in evidence as GEB

9 Attorney Exhibit No. 6.)

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there any reason

11 why we are showing pictures.

12 MR. BOSTWICK: To witnesses, to other

13 witnesses to identify individuals as individuals

14 they have seen and had dealings with.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there any -- will

16 there be any doubt about the identity? It is

17 okay one way or the other. I am just wondering

18 why we have all of these pictures.

19 MR. BOSTWICK: Simply to corroborate the

20 individual's testimony that I know this

21 individual if they don't know a name or what have

22 you.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Okay.

24 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. O'Rourke, that's all of


1 the questions that I have for you.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, why don't

3 we take a break here. The court reporters are

4 burning out. Let's take 15 minutes.

5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)


7 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, I just have one final

8 question and then I forgot to move one exhibit.

9 Based on the information you received,

10 did you have a classification for Mr. DiForti?

11 A. Yes, sir. He's a made member of

12 organized crime.

13 Q. Okay. Could you simply mark that down

14 in red pen.

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: And I'd offer that specific

17 item that he's been working on, we'll erase this

18 board now, as 145A. We'll keep a visual tab of

19 his testimony.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Run that past me

21 again.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd offer that specific

23 document that he has been marking on as 145A to

24 keep a tab of his testimony.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: We'll accept it as

2 illustrative of what he said, what he wrote down.

3 MR. BOSTWICK: Not for the truth of the

4 matter. Those are obviously your ultimate

5 determinations.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. These charts

7 and these documents are really a guide.

8 MR. BOSTWICK: Visual aids.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll tell you how

10 dangerous these charts are. I was trying a

11 criminal case and there was a big tablet, just a

12 plain white tablet to write on, and for some

13 reason or another, the prosecutor walks over and

14 writes a couple words on it, and then sometime

15 during the case, somebody else goes over and

16 writes a couple words on it just to illustrate

17 what we're talking about, another person would go

18 and say, now, wait a minute, in

19 cross-examination, would go over and put a circle

20 around a couple of those words.

21 So at the end of a one-week trial or

22 10-day trial, there's this big piece of paper up

23 there with just words and colors on it, circles

24 around it, and so forth, and that was it.


1 The first thing the jury asked is what

2 was that chart. I can't send this back. Nobody

3 knows what the hell it's supposed to mean.

4 That's the danger. At least you have the chart.

5 You've got blue, red and green. Okay.

6 MR. BOSTWICK: Exhibit 145A.


8 (WHEREUPON, said document,

9 previously marked GEB Attorney

10 Exhibit No. 145A, for

11 identification, was offered

12 and received in evidence.)

13 MR. THOMAS: At this time, we call Thomas

14 Bohling to the stand.

15 MR. CARMELL: What we have agreed to is

16 that --

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand. You

18 agree that we will wait for an opportune time for

19 you to prepare so that you can question

20 Mr. O'Rourke, cross-examine him anew, afresh.

21 MR. CARMELL: That's correct.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are we hearing

23 from here?

24 MR. THOMAS: Thomas Bohling. Sit down and


1 be sworn.

2 (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly

3 sworn.)


5 called as a witness herein, having been first

6 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

7 follows:



10 Q. Could you state your full name for the

11 record.

12 A. Thomas Bohling, B-o-h-l-i-n-g.

13 Q. Where are you employed, sir?

14 A. Cook County Sheriff's Police.

15 Q. What's your position there?

16 A. Commanding officer.

17 Q. How long have you be so employed?

18 A. I've been employed with the Sheriff's

19 Police for approximately three years.

20 Q. What types of cases do you work on?

21 A. I work on homicides, organized crime,

22 vice, technical services and a child exploitation

23 unit come under me.

24 Q. How long have you been with law


1 enforcement?

2 A. 30 years.

3 Q. Where did you start out in law

4 enforcement?

5 A. Chicago Police Department.

6 Q. Approximately what year was that?

7 A. 1968.

8 Q. And was that routine patrol type work?

9 A. For the first several years, it was,

10 yes.

11 Q. And after those first several years,

12 what did you move to?

13 A. I transferred to the vice unit,

14 operating out of Maxwell Street.

15 Q. Was that in or about approximately

16 1974?

17 A. '73.

18 Q. From 1973 to 1994, did you stay in

19 that line of work?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. When you say vice, what do you mean?

22 What types of criminal activity are you referring

23 to?

24 A. Prostitution, obscenity, gambling and


1 originally at that time vice took in narcotics

2 investigations before it became a separate

3 division.

4 Q. With respect to gambling and

5 pornography, what types of investigative

6 techniques did you use in your police work?

7 A. Both surveillance work, undercover,

8 infiltration, warrants, search warrants, arrest

9 warrants.

10 Q. And did you coordinate your activities

11 with our law enforcement agencies?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Could you name some of those?

14 A. Federal Bureau of Investigation,

15 United States Customs, Secret Service, DEA, MEG,

16 State Police.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: MEG is, what kind of

18 unit is an MEG unit?

19 THE WITNESS: Pardon me, sir?

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: What kind of unit is

21 an MEG unit?

22 THE WITNESS: It's a Metropolitan

23 Enforcement Group, narcotics.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I just wanted you to


1 explain that for me.


3 Q. With respect to gambling activities,

4 did you ever work in the investigations in the

5 26th Street area or the Chinatown area of

6 Chicago?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Did the name Frank Caruso ever come up

9 in the course of those investigations in the

10 1970s or '80s?

11 A. Yes, it did.

12 Q. In what context?

13 A. I was informed by sources that a

14 number of individuals by the name of Caruso were

15 responsible for gambling in that area.

16 Q. Does the same Skids Caruso mean

17 anything to you?

18 A. Yes, it does.

19 Q. Who is he?

20 A. I know Skids Caruso to be the father

21 of Frank Caruso and I believe the uncle of Leo

22 Caruso.

23 Q. When you say the father of Frank

24 Caruso, is that the father of Frank Toots Caruso?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Also known as Toots Caruso?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the name Leo Caruso also come up

5 in your law enforcement activities in the

6 Chinatown or 26th Street area?

7 A. Yes, it did.

8 Q. Was he ever observed in the

9 surveillance of gambling activity in that area?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. You also mentioned that you had

12 extensive experience in the anti-pornography

13 effort. Can you define, or not define, but could

14 you describe under Illinois law what types of

15 activities are prohibited with respect to

16 pornography?

17 A. The types of activities that are

18 prohibited are those that fall within the

19 definition of the state statute which follows the

20 Miller versus California decision, a Supreme

21 Court decision, which states basically if a work

22 is patently offensive, depicts ultimate sex acts,

23 whether they're normal sex acts or prevented sex

24 acts and there's no literary, political or


1 scientific exonerating needs for this, they then

2 can be ruled obscene.

3 Q. What types of investigative or

4 enforcement techniques did you use during your

5 approximately 20 years with the Chicago Police to

6 enforce the anti-pornography rules?

7 A. It depended on the type of individual

8 location that was an outlet for this material.

9 If it was an adult bookstore, we would go into

10 the adult bookstore and make a purchase and buy

11 the material from the person in the store and

12 then subsequently take it to the State's

13 Attorney's office for a ruling who, in turn,

14 would then take it before a judge for a probable

15 cause hearing.

16 Based on the outcome of that hearing,

17 if there was probable cause found on the obscene

18 matter, there would be an arrest warrant issued

19 for the person that was responsible for the

20 distribution and sale of the material.

21 Q. Approximately how many cases of that

22 type did you work over those 20 years?

23 A. Well, literally in the thousands. I

24 mean, it would be hard. You know, more than 100,


1 150 per year.

2 Q. Okay. Is that a misdemeanor under

3 state law?

4 A. It's a misdemeanor, but it can be a

5 felony on the second conviction.

6 Q. Through your 20 years of experience

7 with the Chicago Police Department doing

8 anti-pornography enforcement, did you ever come

9 to the understanding that organized crime in

10 Chicago had any hand in that business?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Were they in any particular parts of

13 the city?

14 A. They were in the distribution,

15 wholesale distribution and retail sale of obscene

16 matter.

17 Q. And what, if any, interest did

18 organized crime have in that -- why did they

19 become interested? What's the attraction for

20 organized crime in that business?

21 A. There's a tremendous profit in

22 pornography sales. There's a huge markup in the

23 cost of producing it and the subsequent sale you

24 can render from a retail store.


1 Q. What geographic areas of the city did

2 organized crime have an influence on in the

3 pornography business?

4 A. Well, they virtually had influence on

5 almost every adult outlet, but the concentration

6 would be on the near north and north and close

7 near west side area of the city, the Loop area.

8 Q. From your perspective as a law

9 enforcement officer, who were the major players

10 of the Outfit in the pornography aspect of

11 organized crime?

12 A. During my tenure, it was an individual

13 by the name of Michael Glitta.

14 Q. And where did Michael Glitta operate?

15 A. Originally I knew of him to operate

16 out of retail stores and then eventually he was a

17 distributor on Milwaukee Avenue.

18 Q. And focusing on the decade of 1980s,

19 with whom did Mr. Glitta associate in the

20 operation of his pornography business?

21 A. He associated with an individual by

22 the name of Peter Dounias at one time he

23 associated with Joe Arnold and Ceasar DiVarco.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Bohling, I am sure


1 the reporter wants to know how to spell Dounias.

2 THE WITNESS: Dounias, I believe it was

3 D-o-u-n-i-a-s, or D-o-n-i-u-s. I'm not really

4 sure, Dounias.


6 Q. During that time period, did you

7 observe or your colleagues observe who, if

8 anyone, was driving Mr. Glitta around town?

9 A. Yes. I observed Mr. Glitta being

10 driven by John Matassa on several occasions.

11 Q. Would you say that was a regular

12 occurrence?

13 A. No, I wouldn't say it was a regular

14 thing. I also saw Mr. Glitta driven by an

15 employee of his distribution center. I forget

16 the individual's name. He acted in the capacity

17 of an accountant, this guy, this other individual

18 that drove him. But on several occasions, I did

19 see Mr. John Matassa, Jr., driving Mr. Glitta.

20 Q. Did you ever in the course of your

21 surveillance in those activities pick up

22 Mr. Matassa on surveillance in and around other

23 aspects of the pornography operation? Let me

24 rephrase that, if I could.


1 Who is Tommy Matassa?

2 A. Tommy Matassa, I believe, is the first

3 cousin to John Matassa and I've had direct

4 involvement with Thomas Matassa.

5 Q. Was Tommy Matassa involved in the

6 pornography business?

7 A. I had known him to be the manager or

8 owner/manager of a store at 109 West Hubbard.

9 Cupboard on Hubbard was the name of the store.

10 Q. What type of literature was sold

11 there?

12 A. It's an adult bookstore.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: How do you know that?

14 You say he was known to be the manager.

15 THE WITNESS: Well, I arrested him one time

16 on an obscenity charge and I've seen him there.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: The basis of your

18 observation is you've been in there and saw him

19 there?


21 THE HEARING OFFICER: And did you happen to

22 arrest him at that same spot?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.




2 Q. In connection with Tommy Matassa's

3 store on Hubbard Street, did you ever see John

4 Matassa in and around that store with Tommy

5 Matassa?

6 A. I never saw John at that location, no.

7 Q. Did you ever see him associating with

8 Tommy Matassa?

9 A. I don't ever recall seeing them

10 together.

11 Q. Was there a location that you

12 occasionally surveilled known as Mr. Edward's

13 Restaurant?

14 A. Yes, there was. I know where

15 Mr. Edward's is and I wasn't involved in

16 surveillances there myself, per se, but I know of

17 surveillances that occurred.

18 Q. Were some of your colleagues involved

19 in surveillances at that location?

20 A. Yes, they were.

21 Q. Had you had a chance to review the

22 police databases with respect to those

23 surveillances?

24 A. Yes, I did.


1 Q. What, if anything, did you learn with

2 respect to meetings of organized crime figures at

3 Mr. Edward's Restaurant?

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: This is Mr. Edward's

5 Restaurant. Where is that, Mr. Bohling?

6 THE WITNESS: It is surprisingly on the

7 corner of Diversey and Narragansett.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Narragansett, what

9 local, what is it called?

10 THE WITNESS: The neighborhood?


12 THE WITNESS: It would be the northwest.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Still in the city?


15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All right.


17 Q. Did you understand the question?

18 A. The question was?

19 Q. Who, if anyone, did you observe with

20 respect to organized crime figures meeting in or

21 around Mr. Edward's Restaurant?

22 MR. CARMELL: He said he never did. I think

23 the question was based on database from others.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's right. He said


1 it was based upon receiving reports of others

2 about the place, right, sir?

3 THE WITNESS: Pardon me, sir.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: What you are about to

5 testify is based upon your reading of

6 surveillance reports of others?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.


9 A. And in reading surveillance reports

10 from others I had observed and read that both

11 Mr. Vince Solano, Mike Glitta, John Matassa, a

12 Robert "Rocco" Dominick and others had met

13 regularly at that location.


15 Q. Are some or all of those gentlemen

16 organized crime figures?

17 A. In my estimation, they are all

18 associates, yes.

19 Q. For example, who was Vince Solano?

20 A. Vince Solano I knew as the boss of the

21 North Side Crew.

22 Q. And John Matassa, the current vice

23 president of the Chicago District Council of

24 LIUNA met regularly at Mr. Edward's Restaurant


1 with Vince Solano?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And who was Bobby Dominick?

4 A. It is an individual that manages

5 possibly four or five adult book stores in the

6 City of Chicago I have had personal contact with

7 on criminal cases regarding obscenity.

8 Q. Do you understand him to be tied with

9 the Outfit?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Who is Mr. Glitta?

12 A. Mr. Glitta I always considered the

13 boss of the adult book store business on the near

14 north side. I have been told by individuals in

15 an undercover capacity that if you wanted

16 anything to do with theft, adult book stores, you

17 have to see Mr. Glitta, get an okay through him.

18 Q. By the way, did you ever prosecute

19 Mr. Glitta or his company in corporate form?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you obtain a conviction?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: When you say you, you

24 were the state's attorney, is that it?


1 THE WITNESS: No. Police officer. I was a

2 police officer.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I mean, the state's

4 attorney prosecuted the case?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, the state's attorney

6 prosecuted.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: How long ago was that

8 when you brought this?

9 THE WITNESS: Mid '80s.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: It was an obscenity

11 case?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who were the

14 defendants?

15 THE WITNESS: The corporation JG Corporation

16 which was Mr. Glitta's corporation.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: JG Corporation, and

18 dealing with I guess the sale of pornographic

19 literature. At what locations, do you have any

20 idea?

21 THE WITNESS: I believe it was 1112 North

22 Milwaukee was the address of his warehouse. This

23 was a warehouse case.



1 Q. Okay. A couple of final questions,

2 Mr. Bohling, with respect to John Matassa.

3 Based on your own observations as well

4 as your review of police databases, what

5 conclusions, if any, do you draw with respect to

6 Mr. Matassa's involvement in the pornography

7 business and particularly the organized crime

8 controlled aspect of pornography?

9 A. I believe him to be a middle

10 management to upper management person and as an

11 associate of organized crime regarding the

12 control of these adult book stores.

13 Q. And, again, with respect to the same

14 time period, what conclusions, if any, do you

15 draw as to whether or not Mr. John Matassa, the

16 current vice president of the Chicago District

17 Council, at that time was knowingly associating

18 with organized crime figures?

19 A. What conclusion do I draw?

20 Q. Yes. Do you believe he did that or

21 not?

22 A. Yes, yes, I do.

23 MR. THOMAS: Nothing further.




2 Q. Mr. Bohling, what is your present

3 position with the Cook County's Sheriff Police?

4 A. Commanding officer.

5 Q. All right, Commander. And what was

6 the highest rank you have had with the Chicago

7 Police Department?

8 A. Patrol officer.

9 Q. Do I understand that you were with the

10 Chicago Police Department from 1968?

11 A. '68.

12 Q. Now, is it fair to say that the

13 standard of obscenity under Miller versus

14 California was a very flexible and floating and

15 difficult one to be enforced?

16 A. Yes, that's an accurate statement.

17 Q. And that what was obscene in the 1960s

18 might not be obscene in the 1970s?

19 A. Yes, I'll agree to that.

20 Q. And certainly what is considered now

21 to be adult would have resulted in convictions in

22 the 1970s and '80s?

23 A. Probably, yes.

24 Q. Now, I just want to -- Commander, I


1 just want to fix some of the time. The time fame

2 in which you observed John Matassa driving a car

3 with Mr. Glitta, could you fix that time frame

4 for me, please?

5 A. It would be somewhat difficult. In

6 addition to seeing him driving the car, I

7 actually spoke to them inside an adult book

8 store, both of them together.

9 Q. And during that period of time, was

10 that in the '70s?

11 A. No. It was in the '80s, mid '80s,

12 early '84, '83. Something in the '80s.

13 Q. And you spoke to Mr. Matassa in the

14 adult book store, is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at that time he knew that you were

17 a Chicago Police Department patrol officer or

18 with the Chicago Police Department?

19 A. I assumed that he did, yes.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: You weren't in

21 uniform, were you?

22 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't.


24 Q. Do you know whether John -- well, from


1 your own knowledge and from the database that you

2 have, was John Matassa ever arrested for

3 pornography?

4 A. No, I don't think he was.

5 Q. If I understand -- strike that.

6 Tommy Matassa was John Matassa's

7 cousin, is that correct?

8 A. That's what I believe, yes.

9 Q. Mr. Edward's Restaurant was at

10 Narragansett and Diversey. How far is it from

11 6121 West Diversey, how far is Narragansett and

12 Diversey from 6121 West Diversey?

13 A. 6121 is the union?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. It is within walking distance, a

16 street or two west of there.

17 Q. From your data surveillance police

18 database, let me see if I can get some

19 understanding, there were times when Mr. Matassa

20 was observed in Mr. Edward's Restaurant alone, is

21 that correct?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. All right. There were times when

24 Mr. Matassa was observed with Mr. Solano in the


1 restaurant, is that correct?

2 A. Yes, according to what I have read.

3 Q. And did you know at that time that

4 Mr. Solano was connected with the Laborers'

5 Union?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And that Mr. Solano -- the District

8 Council is two blocks away?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you have those police surveillance

11 reports concerning Mr. Edward's Restaurant with

12 you?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. You reviewed them before you came

15 here?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you have come here voluntarily?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. And was that at the request of anyone

20 other than -- let me put it this way. Did the

21 FBI request that you come here?

22 A. No, they didn't.

23 Q. Did someone from the General Executive

24 Board Attorneys, either Mr. Bostwick or


1 Mr. Thomas, ask you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did Jack O'Rourke ask you to come here

4 to testify?

5 A. Yes, Jack O'Rourke asked me to come

6 here and testify.

7 MR. CARMELL: I have nothing else. Thank

8 you, Commander.

9 MR. THOMAS: Very briefly, Mr. Vaira, if I

10 could.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. Make it

12 from there.



15 Q. Mr. Bohling, Mr. Carmell was asking

16 you about the definition of pornography being

17 something of an evolving concept over the past

18 few decades. Do you recall that question?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Your prosecution or assisting in the

21 prosecution of Mr. Glitta's company, was that in

22 the 1980s?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. And how many counts of conviction were


1 there in the case that you are referring to?

2 A. There was originally 6,500 charges

3 placed at one time, you know, at the same time,

4 and Mr. Glitta pled to a portion of those and I

5 don't really remember. It was a third or less of

6 those counts.

7 Q. But it was more than a thousand?

8 A. No, no. That he pled to, no. It was

9 less than a thousand that he pled to.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. But there were 3,500 charges.

12 Q. Okay. The ones that he pled to, in

13 your professional experience dealing with

14 pornography and the enforcement of

15 anti-pornography rules, in your estimation were

16 these close calls under the -- this evolving

17 standard of pornography?

18 A. Maybe I can explain it this way. We

19 raided the man's warehouse and took every piece

20 of material that seemed to be actionable under

21 the state statute. Then the state's attorney

22 seen fit to go with charges on each piece of

23 material that seemed to fit the statute's

24 elements on obscenity, and during the trial it


1 was plea bargained to a portion of them.

2 Q. So it did not actually go to trial?

3 It pled before trial?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. And Mr. Glitta or his corporation pled

6 to --

7 A. A portion of those charges.

8 Q. Some substantial portion of those

9 charges?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Carmell asked you whether or

12 not Mr. Matassa had ever been arrested for

13 pornography. I think you indicated that he has

14 not. He has, in fact, been arrested, has he not?

15 A. I believe he had.

16 Q. What do you understand he has been

17 arrested and indicted for in the past?

18 A. I believe it was for extortion, an

19 extortion charge. I am not sure.

20 Q. Did that involve a shakedown of a gay

21 bar?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Ultimately he was acquitted for that,

24 correct?


1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. But a grand jury found probable cause

3 to indict him, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Finally, Mr. Carmell asked you about

6 the fact that the -- Mr. Edward's meetings

7 involved Mr. Solano, a fellow union officer. Do

8 you recall that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. On the times that Mr. Solano and

11 Mr. Matassa would meet at Mr. Edward's

12 Restaurant, Mr. Glitta was also often there,

13 isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Glitta was not a union official,

16 was he?

17 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

18 Q. And based on Mr. Glitta's presence at

19 those meetings at Mr. Edward's Restaurant, do you

20 believe they were talking about union activity in

21 those meetings?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 MR. THOMAS: Nothing further, your Honor.




2 Q. So, Commander, assuming that

3 Mr. Glitta was a member of organized crime --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- the conversations that Mr. Matassa

6 would have had with him would not have related to

7 union business as far as you are concerned, is

8 that correct?

9 A. That's only a supposition.

10 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Matassa, to your

11 knowledge, had no ownership in J&G, if I have got

12 the right corporation?

13 A. You have the right corporation. To my

14 knowledge, I never saw Mr. Matassa's name on

15 anything that would indicate that he had

16 ownership of it. You are correct.

17 Q. And the indictment was against the

18 corporation only, is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you know after the 3,000 and

21 some odd counts were pled, there was a plea

22 bargain, what was the result?

23 A. It was a substantial fine, but I don't

24 remember.


1 MR. CARMELL: Thank you, Commander.

2 MR. THOMAS: I have one more question. Just

3 one, your Honor. I promise.



6 Q. After the conviction of Mr. Glitta's

7 corporation for those multiple counts of

8 pornography, did Mr. Matassa continue to

9 associate with Mr. Glitta?

10 A. I really can't answer. I can't put it

11 in a time frame.

12 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, sir.

14 (Witness excused.)

15 MR. CARMELL: I would like to do one

16 preliminary so you can rule on it or consider it

17 or deny.

18 I would like to raise with you with

19 respect to the matter before we get to

20 Mr. O'Rourke, Mr. Vaira, that under EDP Rule 5F,

21 as in Frank, you have the authority to issue a

22 subpoena duces tecum to anyone -- to a member or

23 officer of LIUNA which I will consider the

24 General Executive Board Attorney for any


1 documents. I would ask you to issue a subpoena

2 for the documents which I have asked of

3 Mr. O'Rourke, which I am not going to bore you

4 with repeating, we know them all, statements he

5 might have, 302s that he might have, anything

6 that he used in respect to these various

7 witnesses.

8 I would also ask you to either issue a

9 subpoena duces tecum under Rule 5F to the

10 nonconfidential witnesses or if that witness will

11 not voluntarily come in to authorize their

12 depositions to be taken under Rule 5G.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Run that past me

14 again. A subpoena for the nonconfidential

15 witnesses being who?

16 MR. BOSTWICK: LaValley.

17 MR. CARMELL: Yes, LaValley and those.

18 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I don't think you

19 have any subpoena power that's enforceable over

20 third parties.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's true. Who are

22 you talking about?

23 MR. CARMELL: I would ask if you don't have

24 that, that you issue -- that you allow -- it says


1 a nonparty deposition to be taken under 5G. I

2 want to take their depositions.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was put in

4 there? I think if you read that, it is under

5 disciplinary matters, but we can translate any

6 due process power if you want, but it was if that

7 third party consents.

8 MR. CARMELL: Here is what it says. It

9 would be easier if I read G, sir.

10 "Depositions. In the event that a

11 non-LIUNA member is willing to offer testimony

12 but is unavailable to appear at the hearing,

13 either party may petition the IHO for permission

14 to take the deposition of the person. If the

15 moving party convinces the IHO that the testimony

16 of the witness is probative and admissible, a

17 deposition may be taken for evidentiary purposes

18 following as closely as possible the Federal

19 Rules of Civil Procedure. The transcript of the

20 deposition may be offered in evidence as part of

21 the hearing," unquote.

22 It is obvious that we first have to

23 determine whether any one of those persons would

24 be willing to offer testimony and so I am asking


1 that the General Executive Board attorney through

2 Mr. O'Rourke who has absolute control over these

3 people since they talk to him at any time and

4 anyplace, he says that he sees them voluntarily,

5 if he would find out whether they would

6 voluntarily appear for a deposition.

7 I recognize that you cannot even

8 entertain the petition for a deposition until it

9 has been determined that the witness -- let's say

10 Mr. LaValley, for example, he is one of them,

11 would be willing to have his deposition taken.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: What you are reading

13 from is not the -- is no part of the ethics and

14 disciplinary procedure. You are reading a set of

15 rules that I wrote for the disciplinary.

16 MR. CARMELL: Yes.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Now, for disciplinary

18 which is one step removed from this, you may

19 still request that if you want. I mean, I am

20 just saying it is not part of the iron-clad black

21 letter law and -- but that's your request.

22 MR. CARMELL: That's my request.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. You are also

24 requesting any notes, any statements that


1 Mr. O'Rourke took, am I right?

2 MR. CARMELL: Or statements that he has that

3 he has used in his testimony.

4 MR. BOSTWICK: We would object to both of

5 those requests.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand. Okay.

7 We will consider that.

8 MR. CARMELL: Thank you.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. We meet

10 tomorrow morning.

11 MR. CARMELL: Yes, nine o'clock.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Nine o'clock. Thank

13 you.

14 (WHEREUPON, the arbitration was

15 adjourned until 9:00 a.m.,

16 July 18, 1997.)











2 ) SS:


4 I, JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, a Certified

5 Shorthand Reporter, CSR No. 84-2604, of the State

6 of Illinois, do hereby certify that I reported in

7 shorthand the proceedings had at the hearing

8 aforesaid, and that the foregoing is a true,

9 complete and correct transcript of the

10 proceedings of said hearing as appears from my

11 stenographic notes so taken and transcribed under

12 my personal direction.

13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set

14 my hand at Chicago, Illinois, this 17th day of

15 July, 1997.



18 Certified Shorthand Reporter


20 C.S.R. Certificate No. 84-2604.






1 I N D E X



4 By Mr. Bostwick 287

5 331

6 430

7 By Mr. Carmell 330



10 By Mr. Thomas 531 551

11 556

12 By Mr. Carmell 546 554



15 E X H I B I T S


17 GEB Attorney

18 No. 6..................................... 527

19 No. 19.................................... 299

20 Nos. 44 and 45............................ 360

21 Nos. 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 77........... 455

22 No. 84.................................... 516

23 No. 97.................................... 401

24 No. 145A.................................. 530

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