4 IN RE: )







11 above-entitled cause at the offices of the FBI,

12 Chicago Division, 219 South Dearborn Street, 9th

13 Floor, on the 21st day of July, A.D. 1997, at

14 approximately 10:15 a.m.



17 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer











3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,

4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:



7 appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;


9 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,

10 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:


12 appeared on behalf of the Chicago

13 District Council of Laborers.



16 MS. COLLEEN RAE MASON, Legal Assistant,

17 Barack, Ferrazzano, Kirschbaum,

18 Perlman & Nagelberg;



21 Federal Bureau of Investigation;



24 CORINNE T. MARUT, CSR 84-1968.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Good morning, ladies

2 and gentlemen. This is Peter Vaira. Can the

3 folks on the other end hear me?

4 This is a continuation of the hearing

5 concerning the proposed trusteeship of the

6 Chicago District Council and with me this morning

7 from my office is, who is different than the

8 other day, is Ms. Laurie Hartman, an attorney

9 from my office.

10 Shall we just go around the room just

11 to make sure that the everyone knows who is

12 here.

13 For the International Union.

14 MR. BOSTWICK: Dwight Bostwick from the GEB

15 Attorney's office.

16 MR. THOMAS: Robert Thomas from the GEB

17 Attorney's office.

18 MR. ROBERT COOLEY: Robert Cooley.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Not you yet.

20 Mr. Sherman Carmell representing.

21 MR. CARMELL: O'Rourke is here from the --

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, yes, and

23 Mr. O'Rourke from the IG's office and I believe

24 one FBI -- two FBI personnel, am I correct?


1 MR. CARMELL: Yes. Sherman Carmell here for

2 the District Council.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And of course

4 the Court Reporters. Okay.

5 Mr. Bostwick, you may proceed.

6 MR. BOSTWICK: Maybe we can swear in the

7 witness to start off and we'll begin the

8 questions.

9 (WHEREUPON, the witness was

10 sworn.)


12 called as a witness herein, having been first

13 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

14 follows:



17 Q. Good morning, sir. What is your given

18 name?

19 A. My given name was Robert Cooley. My

20 name has been changed, but that was the name I

21 had for many years here in Chicago.

22 Q. What's your approximate age? What is

23 your exact age?

24 A. Just turned 55.


1 Q. Now, why isn't this the name that you

2 currently go by, Robert Cooley?

3 A. I had to leave the city about nine

4 years ago when I -- when it became known that I

5 had been working with the Government for a period

6 of time in wearing a wire against certain

7 organized crime people here in the city.

8 Q. Have you provided testimony for the

9 Government in federal criminal cases?

10 A. Yes, sir, I have.

11 Q. Approximately how many trials?

12 A. I believe we had six or seven trials.

13 Q. What was the general subject matter of

14 that testimony?

15 A. Basically corruption, both in the

16 court system and interconnected between the court

17 system and organized crime here in the city.

18 Q. Let me mention a couple of these cases

19 and get you to clarify them.

20 U.S. v. Lee On Leong, did you testify

21 in that case?

22 A. Yes, sir, I testified briefly in that

23 case, yes, sir.

24 Q. What was that case? What was the


1 nature of that case?

2 A. My testimony was in regards to a

3 murder case that I helped fix whereby there were

4 three people that were charged with killing

5 somebody here in Chinatown here in Chicago. I

6 fixed that case before Judge Tom Maloney here.

7 Q. When you say you fixed that case, what

8 do you mean by that?

9 A. I received $100,000 from the Chinese

10 people and split that money with Pat Marcy, Fred

11 Roti and some of the money went to the judge to

12 make certain we had a not guilty verdict on the

13 case.

14 Q. This was related to activities with

15 the 26th Street crew?

16 A. They were inter-involved in that

17 particular -- in the Chinatown -- the incident

18 took place in Chinatown, but there had been

19 illegal gambling in Chinatown for years and the

20 people there were in fact paying to the -- what I

21 call the Chinatown group, the 26th Street group.

22 That was the group they paid the street tax to.

23 Q. U.S. v John D'Arco, Junior, and that's

24 D-'-A-r-c-o, did you testify in that case?


1 A. Yes, sir, I did.

2 Q. What was the general nature of that

3 case?

4 A. Johnny D'Arco, Junior was the son of

5 Johnny D'Arco, Senior who was the First Ward

6 committeeman. Johnny was a state senator during

7 the period of time when I was a -- when I was

8 partners with him in a law firm here in Chicago.

9 Q. And what was the general nature of the

10 charges?

11 A. The case that we -- the case I

12 testified in that he was convicted on was fixing

13 a matter in the senate. We arranged to have a

14 bill passed in the senate. He took some money to

15 take care of that bill being passed. He was

16 charged with a second case -- fixing a case here

17 before Judge Scotillo, a civil case that he pled

18 guilty on that. After he was convicted on the

19 first charge, he wound up pleading guilty on the

20 second charge.

21 Q. How about U.S. v Stillo, S-t-i-l-l-o?

22 A. That was Judge Stillo, Adam Stillo and

23 his nephew Joey Stillo. That was a judge that I

24 had fixed many cases with over a period of time.


1 He was a judge that was interconnected with the

2 organized crime people here in Chicago. His

3 nephew and him were both convicted of conspiring

4 to fix a case that I was doing for the FBI.

5 Q. United States v Lucious Robbinson?

6 A. Actually -- yes, I did testify in that

7 case. Lucious Robbinson was a clerk over in the

8 26th Street building who was interconnected with

9 a lot of the corrupt judges over there in the

10 building. I had fixed cases years ago with him,

11 through him.

12 Q. What was the general nature of the

13 charges against Mr. Robbinson?

14 A. Mr. Robbinson was charged with taking

15 money to fix cases, I believe.

16 Q. Was Mr. Robbinson convicted?

17 A. Yes, sir, he was.

18 Q. How about U.S. v Tom Maloney and

19 Robert McGee?

20 A. Tom Maloney was a judge, a full

21 circuit judge here in Cook County who was very

22 well connected with organized crime people here

23 in the city. He was a judge that I fixed a -- I

24 fixed the Chinese murder case before. That case


1 was before Tom Maloney. He was convicted of

2 fixing I believe two or three other cases too.

3 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Were those cases

4 in which Mr. Cooley testified?


6 Q. Yes. Are these all cases --

7 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. He mentioned the

8 Maloney and Robert McGee case and then when he

9 was finished he said there were other judges or

10 other cases. I am just wondering whether he had

11 testified in those cases. I have no problem. I

12 am just trying to identify.


14 A. I am sorry. What I meant was he was

15 charged with other additional charges besides

16 just that particular case. He also was involved

17 with me when I fixed the Harry Aleman case. That

18 was a mob enforcer that, in fact, had killed

19 Billy Logan years ago.

20 Judge Maloney at the time was an

21 attorney and he was representing Harry Aleman

22 initially when I took the case over and I fixed

23 it, but he had complete knowledge of that fix, in

24 fact, taking place. He was made -- he was well


1 aware of the fix that was going on at that time.


3 Q. So at any rate, you testified in U.S.

4 v Maloney, McGee?

5 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: That Maloney case had

7 to do with the bribe that went down on the Harry

8 Aleman case?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that was the case

10 where I think the Supreme Court just ruled even

11 though he was found not guilty, he can be tried

12 again because there was no jeopardy in the case

13 because he was aware of the fact that the fix was

14 in and he was never in jeopardy on that case.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Aleman you mean?

16 THE WITNESS: Harry Aleman, yes, sir.

17 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Vaira, this is where my

18 confusion is. I understand that in U.S. versus

19 Tom Maloney and Robert McGee that that was --

20 that Mr. Cooley testified in relation to what we

21 call the On Leong fix, the one that was the

22 murder case in U.S. versus On Leong.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: The Chinese murder

24 case?


1 MR. CARMELL: Right.

2 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

3 MR. CARMELL: I don't know whether he

4 testified with respect to any other cases. I

5 know that he has knowledge and has said about

6 them and that's what I am just trying to clarify.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Do you think

8 you can clear that up?

9 MR. BOSTWICK: Right.


11 Q. Did you testify in any of these other

12 cases relating to the Aleman fix, for example?

13 A. Yes, sir. I was the main witness in

14 that case, yes, sir.

15 Q. What was the caption of that case, do

16 you recall?

17 A. Well, I testified about that fix both

18 in the Pat Marcy/Fred Roti case and I also

19 testified about that fix in Tom Maloney's case

20 because he was the judge that was involved in

21 that case.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, you should

23 know that when I was the chief of the strike

24 force here, one of the -- I mean, I brought that


1 case against Harry Aleman and Butch Petrocelli

2 and one of the acts of racketeering was the act

3 of effecting a bribe. So, I mean, I don't know

4 how direct of a connection it is, but I was the

5 prosecutor on that case. I mean, I think Robert

6 Rose and Gary Shapiro prosecuted that, but I

7 brought it and I had knowledge of it, so just to

8 let you know that.


10 Q. You mentioned U.S. v Pat Marcy and

11 Fred Roti, Mr. Cooley. Can you tell us a little

12 bit about that case?

13 A. Well, Pat Marcy was the -- his title

14 was First Ward secretary. Actually he was the

15 one that was the main conduit between the

16 organized crime people and the court system and

17 the judicial system and the legal system and the

18 police and the unions here in the city.

19 Q. During what period of time?

20 A. During the entire period of time that

21 I was involved with them. I was involved with

22 them from about 1973 to about -- on an every day

23 basis until about 19 -- about 1980 and then I

24 also was -- I moved away from the city, but I


1 still practice here in Cook County and I was

2 still back and forth for the next four or five

3 years with these people.

4 Q. How about Fred Roti?

5 A. Fred Roti was the First Ward alderman

6 during the entire time I was connected with the

7 First Ward. He was -- I was involved with

8 Freddie on -- almost on an every day basis also.

9 With Pat Marcy now, going back to Pat Marcy,

10 after I fixed the Harry Aleman case there was a

11 period of time for over a year when I would have

12 dinner with Pat Marcy and different organized

13 crime people and different union officials. For

14 a period of almost a year, we'd go every Thursday

15 and after dinner we'd go someplace in the city.

16 Q. Approximately what period of time was

17 that?

18 A. I believe the Aleman matters took

19 place in '77. It was from '77 to about middle of

20 '78, maybe '79. There was a long period when I

21 was with -- with those people.

22 Q. What were the nature of the charges

23 against Mr. Marcy and Mr. Roti?

24 A. Pat -- Pat Marcy, Sr. was charged with


1 everything from -- he was the one you would pay

2 if you wanted to become a judge. You would pay

3 Pat money. He'd make you a judge.

4 He was also charged with fixing a

5 zoning case. He was charged with fixing a case

6 that I put into the -- into the court system with

7 Judge Scotillo. He was charged with a whole

8 series of other related matters under

9 racketeering.

10 (WHEREUPON, there was a short

11 interruption.)


13 Q. The case of U.S. vs. David Shields and

14 Pat DeLeo, did you testify in that matter?

15 A. Yes, sir, I did.

16 Q. Can you describe the general nature of

17 that case?

18 A. Well, Pat DeLeo was Johnny D'Arco's

19 brother-in-law. When I first got involved with

20 Patty, Patty was the corporate counsel here in

21 charge of licensing court. I dealt with Patty

22 for a period of many years fixing cases, moving

23 bribes, doing different things here in the city.

24 When I came to work for the


1 Government, we put a fictitious case in the -- in

2 the court system and Pat DeLeo was the one who

3 arranged to fix the case with Judge Shields.

4 Q. What was the result in that case?

5 A. We got -- in the case -- in the case

6 we wanted to fix or in the trial?

7 Q. In the trial. I'm sorry. In the

8 trial against David Shields and Pat DeLeo.

9 A. Everybody in all my cases was found

10 guilty. They were found guilty.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me one second.

12 They tell me they need more volume on the other

13 end. Right, sir?

14 MR. LUERA: It's conversational at best.

15 They are going to have to pick up a little bit.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anything we

17 should do electronically or give it more force?

18 MR. LUERA: More force.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. That's what the

20 call was about.

21 MR. LUERA: Yes, sir.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. We will

23 try to speak up.



1 Q. I don't believe I asked you what the

2 result in the Pat Marcy and Fred Roti case was.

3 What was the result in that federal criminal

4 trial?

5 A. The result in every case I testified

6 in on my own cases everybody was found guilty in

7 all the cases except Pat Marcy. He died, Pat

8 Marcy. The day I came into court he had a heart

9 attack or something after he saw me and left the

10 court and never came back. They put -- they put

11 his case to the side and we continued with Fred

12 Roti. Fred Roti was convicted on all counts.

13 Q. Did the initial On Leong case result

14 in a conviction to your knowledge?

15 A. The On Leong case, that was a long,

16 extended case and I believe there was a whole

17 series of counts that there was a hung jury on.

18 Some of the people were found guilty

19 on some of the lesser included -- and eventually

20 they worked on pleas on that. But that was the

21 first case I testified in and I believe they had

22 100 and some witnesses and I was just a very,

23 very small part of that.

24 I believe that the people -- I believe


1 the one person I testified against in particular,

2 I believe he was found guilty of something. What

3 exact, I don't know. But, again, I'm not

4 positive of that.

5 Q. All of these cases that we've just

6 been speaking of that you testified in, did

7 those -- were those cases brought in the late

8 '80s and early 1990s?

9 A. Yes, sir. I believe it was --

10 actually I believe it was in 1990. I left the

11 city I think in '89. I believe the first case

12 didn't take place until about two years

13 afterwards.

14 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that the

15 testimony that you provided on all of these

16 occasions related in some aspects to organized

17 crime's influence over the City of Chicago?

18 A. Basically every person I was involved

19 with was inter-involved with organized crime. I

20 believe every case that I had they were involved

21 in organized crime.

22 Q. In addition to your testimony in

23 federal criminal trials, have you provided

24 information to law enforcement relating to the


1 affairs of organized crime in the City of

2 Chicago?

3 A. Yes, sir, I have.

4 Q. Have you ever consented to having

5 monitored conversations with organized crime

6 figures in Chicago?

7 A. I wore a wire for about three years.

8 Q. On how many occasions, can you

9 approximate the occasions, the number of

10 occasions you wore wires?

11 A. I believe there is over 100 tapes.

12 Again, I'm sure there is over 100 tapes.

13 Q. Did these activities involve a degree

14 of personal risk to you?

15 A. I would imagine, yes, sir.

16 Q. Did your information that you provided

17 as well as the consensually monitored devices

18 result in any plea agreements without the

19 necessity of your testifying in federal criminal

20 trials?

21 A. After convictions in I believe the

22 first six cases, then Marco and Bobby Abbinanti

23 and some of the others all pled guilty.

24 Q. When you say Marco, who do you mean?


1 A. Marco D'Amico.

2 Q. There were a number of individuals

3 that pled guilty as a result of information, at

4 least in part as a result of information you

5 provided to law enforcement?

6 A. That's correct.

7 MR. CARMELL: I'm just going to object to

8 the form of the question. That assumes that that

9 was the reason. I believe the witness testified

10 that after he testified certain events happened,

11 certain people pled guilty. And I think that --

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's fair,

13 Mr. Carmell. I think just to ask him after --

14 after he testified there, he was a potential

15 witness in a number of cases and those cases,

16 what happened to those?


18 A. The last -- the last series of cases

19 that were against specific organized crime

20 persons, I believe all of them pled guilty.


22 Q. In testifying currently about

23 organized crime figures, do you have a concern

24 regarding the disclosure of the current state of


1 your personal appearance?

2 A. Absolutely, yes, sir.

3 Q. Did these factors, concern for your

4 safety and the protection of your appearance,

5 account for the accommodations being made for

6 today?

7 A. That's correct.

8 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, we're

9 here under these circumstances. I don't believe

10 asking this witness why he is here and what he is

11 here -- the FBI and the Government have placed

12 him in the program. He is in the program. We

13 know that.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: And I don't think we

15 need to go any further. He is here. We are in a

16 secure location and I'm the one making that

17 decision.

18 MR. CARMELL: That's correct.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: You don't have to go

20 any further. Although you are making a record.

21 We will take note we are in a secured location.

22 You are in some sort of witness

23 protection program, is that right?

24 THE WITNESS: That's correct.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: And your identity

2 remains confidential.

3 THE WITNESS: It's been changed, yes, sir.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: You would not be happy

5 about it if people found out where you lived.

6 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, no, sir.


8 Q. Mr. Cooley, have you heard of the term

9 the Chicago Outfit?

10 A. Yes, sir, I have.

11 Q. Could you define that term for us?

12 A. Well, again, it's been called a lot of

13 things. For a long period when I lived here in

14 the city I knew there were a series of people

15 that were interconnected with each other that --

16 that collected money from individuals involved in

17 illegal activities and otherwise, and it was

18 commonly called the Outfit.

19 It was commonly called organized

20 crime. It was commonly called Mafioso. I heard

21 it called by many names.

22 Q. How would you describe the nature of

23 your relationship to the Chicago Outfit from --

24 during the period of the '70s to the early '80s?


1 A. There was a long period of time,

2 probably about 10 to 15 years, when I would be

3 out socially with these people most every day. I

4 did things together all the time with them. I

5 was single. I was never married. I was out most

6 every night, and basically my companions for a

7 long period of time were all interconnected with

8 organized crime.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: During this period of

10 time that you are meeting with the members from

11 the Outfit, how were you employed? What did you

12 do?

13 THE WITNESS: Initially I was a policeman

14 and I was an attorney. I was an attorney here in

15 the city for a period of about 18 years.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: We will get into that

17 extensively next.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. I am

19 trying to get his picture. I know he said he was

20 dealing with the aldermen and the other persons.

21 So, okay.

22 (WHEREUPON, there was a short

23 interruption.)

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let the record


1 indicate we are waiting to hear if that is a

2 transmission problem.

3 Okay. Proceed.


5 Q. Let me take you back, Mr. Cooley, to

6 your early adulthood. Did you ever work as a

7 police officer?

8 A. Yes, sir, I was a policeman here in

9 the City of Chicago for about seven years when I

10 was going to both college and then law school.

11 Q. What were the approximate dates of

12 that employment?

13 A. I believe from about 1962 to I believe

14 1970.

15 Q. Approximately how old were you during

16 that period of time?

17 A. I was 20 when I joined the Police

18 Department and I was about 20 -- 28 when I

19 graduated law school and left the department.

20 Q. What areas of the City of Chicago did

21 you work as a police officer and what positions

22 did you hold?

23 A. Initially I worked in the south side

24 and south Chicago in the same area where I


1 lived. After about four years I asked to

2 transfer down to the Rush Street -- Rush Street

3 area where I moved to.

4 Q. Did you ever take any money as a

5 police officer?

6 A. Yes, sir, I did a few times.

7 Q. Approximately how often?

8 A. Probably about four or five times,

9 maybe a couple more, on traffic stops when people

10 would give me money.

11 Q. What types of things other than

12 traffic stops did you receive money for?

13 A. There was a period of time when I

14 worked in south Chicago where I worked the bar

15 car, the umbrella car, and at the end of the

16 month certain bars would give money to the person

17 that handled the car and I would get some of that

18 money. There were probably about six or seven

19 times when I got my share of that.

20 Q. What is a bar car?

21 A. A bar car was a cover car that didn't

22 answer main radio calls, was there to cover or

23 protect other cars in case there were dangerous

24 calls.


1 Part of the duties in south Chicago

2 when you worked the umbrella car or the bar car

3 was to close up the bars at either 2 o'clock or

4 4 o'clock and to chase out the people that didn't

5 want to leave.

6 Q. And what was it that you received

7 money for as a policeman?

8 A. Well, what we did there was we

9 would -- certain bars wanted to make sure

10 somebody was there to get the people out because

11 it would avoid problems with some of the

12 customers and a series of the bars would pay so

13 much a month to the umbrella car, whoever in fact

14 was in charge of it. He would split the money up

15 with the different people that worked the car

16 that month.

17 Q. While you were a policeman, did you

18 meet a man named Roland Borelli?

19 A. Yes, sir, I did.

20 Q. Did you know him by any other names?

21 A. I knew him by Rolly.

22 Q. What were his duties?

23 A. He worked out of East Chicago Avenue

24 also. His job was supposed to watch the traffic


1 light below the Tribune building.

2 Q. So he was a policeman as well?

3 A. He was a police officer, yes, sir.

4 Q. Approximately when did you meet?

5 A. I met him when I first -- a short time

6 after I have transferred down to the 18th

7 District. I met him. I met him one Saturday

8 afternoon when we worked -- when we worked one of

9 the cover cars there together.

10 Q. Did you maintain a relationship with

11 him over time?

12 A. From the very beginning we got along

13 very well for quite a period of time.

14 Q. What types of things did you do

15 together?

16 A. We played cards. I started having

17 card games at my house.

18 Q. When you say card games, are these

19 legal card games?

20 A. No, sir. It was poker games, but I am

21 sure they weren't legal. But they were poker

22 games, high stakes poker games.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: What do you mean by

24 that? Guys playing alone and just playing for


1 stakes or something else? When you say you are

2 sure they are illegal, what do you mean by that?

3 THE WITNESS: Again, I have seen situations

4 when they arrested some of these old-timers for

5 playing in ten cent poker games. Apparently it's

6 illegal to gamble and it's illegal to play

7 cards.

8 We did it. They were high stakes

9 games. Nobody cut the games, but they were very

10 high games.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: It was a private game,

12 but it was high stakes.

13 THE WITNESS: That's correct.


15 Q. What you say high stakes, what do you

16 mean?

17 A. We played for -- you could lose 1,000,

18 $2,000 easily in a given night. We played for --

19 we start off playing for like five, ten and the

20 game would get higher.

21 Q. Did Mr. Borelli ever engage in

22 bookmaking activity to your knowledge?

23 A. Yes, sir. He was -- he was

24 inter-involved with Marco and some other people.


1 Almost from the start, I was introduced to some

2 of these people and I began playing -- I began

3 betting with bookmakers all throughout the city.

4 Q. When you say Marco, who do you mean?

5 A. Marco D'Amico.

6 Q. Was this bookmaking tied to the

7 Chicago Outfit?

8 A. Yes, sir, it was.

9 Q. What type of betting was -- were you

10 involved in in this bookmaking?

11 A. Baseball, betting baseball,

12 basketball, football, hockey. I bet with him for

13 a while and then after a period of time I would

14 actually move money for him because I -- he took

15 bets from some people and I had five or six

16 bookmakers I was playing with after a period of

17 time and I would sometimes take bets from him,

18 move some of the money and book some of the bets.

19 Q. You would actual occasionally act as a

20 bookmaker as well for Mr. Borelli?

21 A. Yes, sir, I did.

22 Q. The substance of this is while you and

23 Mr. Borelli were police officers during this

24 period of time you engaged in bookmaking


1 activities that offered a share of their profits

2 to organized crime, is that correct?

3 A. I never actually paid at that time.

4 That was actually prior to the time when they

5 started hitting all the people for street tax.

6 I mean when I booked, I just booked

7 for one person. I moved some of Ricky's money

8 and played with other bookmakers. I never paid

9 the Outfit myself to book. I just did it.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whose line did you

11 use?

12 THE WITNESS: I would make up my own.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whose line did Borelli

14 use?

15 THE WITNESS: Again, Borelli was with the --

16 with the Elmwood Park crew and he would get a

17 line from bookmakers he dealt with. I would get

18 a line from one or two or three people I called.

19 But actually when I gave Ricky the

20 plays, I would make up my own line and give it to

21 him trying to encourage betting the way I liked

22 it. I'd move a line for my own purposes.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you know the name

24 of Borelli's guy who he got the line from?


1 THE WITNESS: I am not sure who it was at

2 that point. It was one of their groups. They

3 had many, many bookmakers working with the

4 Elmwood Park Crew.


6 Q. Who is Marco D'Amico?

7 A. Marco D'Amico was with the Elmwood

8 Park Crew, worked under Jackie Cerone and under

9 the people that were under Jackie at that time.

10 Q. Did you -- when did you first meet

11 Mr. D'Amico?

12 A. I met him -- a short time after I met

13 Ricky, I met Marco. I was introduced to him and

14 I actually began betting with Marco and then

15 Marco started coming to my house for card games

16 and I started going out socially with him.

17 Q. Did you maintain a relationship, a

18 long-standing relationship with Mr. D'Amico?

19 A. For approximately 10 years.

20 Q. What were the approximate dates of

21 this?

22 A. From about 1970 -- probably about --

23 '68, probably about 1968 until about 1978.

24 Q. How often would you see Mr. D'Amico


1 during that period of time?

2 A. Two, three, four times a week.

3 Q. What did you understand Mr. D'Amico to

4 do, what was his job?

5 A. When I first met him, I just thought

6 he was a bookmaker like some of the other

7 bookmakers. After I started practicing law and I

8 started getting business from him, I realized he

9 was a lot more powerful than that. He was

10 actually a street boss for the Elmwood Park Crew

11 and eventually became in charge of a lot of

12 gambling throughout the entire city.

13 MR. CARMELL: Could we break this down? As

14 I understand it from -- he said that for a period

15 of time he only knew him as a bookmaker. Could

16 we break that down as to when and then when he

17 says that he got knowledge of a different status?


19 Q. You understand the gist of those

20 questions?

21 A. Yes, sir, I did. When I first met

22 Marco again through Ricky I was still a policeman

23 and I was working at 18th. I started betting

24 with him and through him and I started going out


1 socially with him. We would go out two, three,

2 four times a week. We would play cards together

3 and we would double date. We would do a lot of

4 things together.

5 After I became an attorney and started

6 practicing, Marco initially brought me a case,

7 brought me a case and after that I began to

8 realize he was a lot better connected with the

9 Outfit than strictly a bookmaker. He was doing a

10 lot more things for them besides just booking.

11 MR. CARMELL: To clarify, so it was sometime

12 after 1970 when you -- we didn't fix when he got

13 his -- fix the date when we got his license.

14 MR. BOSTWICK: His license to practice law?

15 MR. CARMELL: I know he graduated in 1970

16 according to his testimony.

17 THE WITNESS: That's when I took the bar. I

18 passed the bar the first time. Right after I

19 graduated I took the bar and was made a member of

20 the bar.

21 MR. CARMELL: Thank you.


23 Q. So as of the early 1970s, it is fair

24 to say that you understood Marco D'Amico to be


1 tied in with the Chicago Outfit?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. As more than just a bookmaker?

4 A. Well, yeah. Shortly after that I met

5 a lot of other people through Marco that were

6 obviously mafioso connected.

7 Q. Let's talk about another one of those

8 individuals. Robert Abbinanti, did you know an

9 individual named Robert Abbinanti?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Did you know him by any other name?

12 A. Bobby. I knew Bobby for many, many

13 years.

14 Q. When did you first meet him?

15 A. I met him through Marco.

16 Q. Approximately when?

17 A. Probably a year or two after I started

18 practicing, maybe even shortly after I started

19 practicing. As we were out socially, we would be

20 out socially a lot and I would see Bobby. I met

21 Bobby initially.

22 Q. Did you go out with these individuals

23 how often, how many times a week?

24 A. For a long period of time three, four


1 times a week I would be out with them.

2 Q. What types of places did you go?

3 A. Different nightclubs, restaurants.

4 Nightclubs mainly. Mainly restaurants and

5 nightclubs.

6 Q. Did you drink with these individuals?

7 A. Yes, sir, I did.

8 Q. Gambling with these individuals?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Was Bobby Abbinanti associated with

11 organized crime?

12 A. Yes, sir, he was.

13 Q. How did you come to know this?

14 A. Well, I represented him on many of his

15 problems and he would get a -- he got arrested

16 many times. I would represent him, but he also

17 approached me after a period of time to do

18 certain things that were very illegal and made it

19 clear what his position was and what he did

20 besides his so-called legit job.

21 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, I don't

22 know the issue of attorney/client privilege here.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: It is going through my

24 mind too.


1 MR. CARMELL: Wait. Just a moment. There

2 is no one here --


4 MR. CARMELL: -- to raise it and --

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I'll raise it.

6 I'll raise it. We ought to be somewhat cautious

7 about that. Before you get that, what did

8 Abbinanti do, what kind of job did he have?

9 THE WITNESS: He drove a -- well, initially

10 when I first met Bobby, he just -- he bounced

11 around. After a period of time he got a job

12 through one of the unions here driving a truck,

13 driving a tow truck for the city. He was

14 supposed to be driving a tow truck for the city.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And you said

16 you represented him on a couple of cases. Were

17 those public matters?

18 THE WITNESS: Again, I understand what you

19 are saying and I understand your concern about

20 the attorney/client privilege and I attempted to

21 make it a point, all of my cases, never to

22 discuss anything from any client that was

23 attorney/client related. What I am talking about

24 Bobby, I am talking about other things that we


1 did, you know, during along period of time. I

2 represented Bobby on some misdemeanors.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: If those are public

4 matters, you can tell us what the charge was

5 anyway and the outcome.


7 A. Again, I would just as soon not even

8 do that for fear that it might be an

9 attorney/client privilege involved. I

10 represented him on some matters, but I also

11 testified and was willing to testify against him

12 on some illegal things that he attempted to do

13 and that was part of the federal case.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Did you testify

15 against him?

16 THE WITNESS: He pled guilty.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, you were prepared

18 to?

19 THE WITNESS: I was prepared to, yes, sir.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Weave your way through

21 this. Go ahead.


23 Q. Apart from your representation of

24 Mr. Abbinanti and through general conversations


1 that were public and with other individuals and

2 that were not related to court cases, did you

3 come to have an understanding of whether

4 Mr. Abbinanti had a role in organized criminal

5 activity in Chicago?

6 A. Oh, yes, he made his role and his

7 position very clear to me.

8 Q. And what was that role and that

9 position?

10 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Again, Mr. Hearing

11 Officer, I know what Mr. Cooley -- what the

12 witness has said, but we don't know whether at

13 the time he was having these conversations

14 Mr. Abbinanti considered him to still be his

15 attorney.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand.

17 MR. CARMELL: This is -- if we can stay away

18 from -- I don't know how we can stay away from

19 it, but it is not really enough to say that it

20 didn't come in the course of a particular

21 representation unless we know a la Hillary

22 Clinton's notes, what the relationship was

23 between and what Mr. Abbinanti believed the

24 relationship was between he and Mr. Cooley at the


1 time he had these conversations.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: I can probably take the

3 questions a few steps further and clarify this.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: I presume the

5 relationship between Mr. Cooley and

6 Mr. Abbinanti, Mr. Abbinanti will not be waiving

7 his attorney/client privilege. I pretty much

8 assume that, so what you gentlemen have to do --

9 you are a lawyer, Mr. Cooley, you know --

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: -- where the

12 attorney/client privilege arises or could arise.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: And if you two fellows

15 were out on the town having a couple of pops, he

16 still may have considered you his attorney as he

17 gave you these little incidents, so you are well

18 aware of that too, Mr. Bostwick, so proceed here

19 with caution.


21 Q. Did you ever have discussions with

22 Mr. Abbinanti about criminal activity that he

23 wanted you to get involved in?

24 A. What I could maybe do to -- I


1 understand where his question is coming from.

2 What I could maybe do is strictly even then just

3 talk about this particular case that he was

4 indicted on. I mean, obviously there was no

5 attorney/client privilege on this particular

6 matter when he was discussing illegal things with

7 me. All of these conversations were recorded.

8 We have tape recordings of all of these

9 conversations.


11 Q. That's an even better idea. Why don't

12 you do that.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: You are also talking

14 about prospective criminal activity as opposed to

15 past criminal activity.


17 A. What happened in this particular

18 criminal case while I was wearing a wire and

19 while I was paying Marco D'Amico a street tax on

20 a federal situation, I had indicated to Marco

21 D'Amico --

22 MR. CARMELL: Can we just fix the time

23 period?

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: The time period you


1 would have had when you would have had to testify

2 about this?


4 A. In 1988. In 1988 I indicated to Marco

5 D'Amico that I was doing some booking. I was

6 not, but I indicated that I was, and I indicated

7 that I had about five or six good customers.

8 During this period of time Marco informed me that

9 I had to pay street tax. He indicated that even

10 though I was his friend, he couldn't protect me

11 unless I paid a street tax.


13 Q. What is street tax?

14 A. A street tax is an amount of money

15 that you paid to organized crime to be allowed to

16 do illegal activities here in the city. He made

17 it clear to me and he made it clear to me on the

18 tape that if, in fact, I didn't pay the street

19 tax, I could suffer some serious consequences.

20 While I was making one of these street

21 tax payments, I mentioned to Marco that I was --

22 that I was playing in a high stakes card game

23 that roamed around. He at that time indicated to

24 me would it be possible for them to rob the card


1 game. Initially told him no, that it would be

2 dangerous because we did it in hotels and other

3 places that were relatively secure and he

4 insisted that he had a group or he had a crew

5 that could handle that. We then --

6 Q. When you say handle that, what do you

7 mean?

8 A. That could rob the game. Regardless

9 of how dangerous or how risky it was, they could

10 rob the game if there was enough money involved

11 in the game and I would get a percentage of the

12 proceeds from the game.

13 Q. What happened next?

14 A. Well, the -- with some of the FBI

15 agents we arranged to have a so-called card game

16 up in Wisconsin and Marco had one of his crews he

17 said that would handle the robbery of the card

18 game. So the FBI got a house, they rented a

19 house up in Wisconsin, we arranged to have the

20 game robbed on a given day and after this I was

21 going to leave town because it was going to

22 come -- obviously come out that I had been

23 working with the government for a period of

24 time.


1 When the robbery was set to take

2 place, Marco's crew was out of town doing

3 something else. We had already had the place

4 ready to go. Bobby found out that there was

5 going to be a robbery of the game and Bobby was

6 really upset.

7 Q. Bobby who?

8 A. Bobby Abbinanti and Bobby was really

9 upset because I didn't give him a chance to rob

10 the game and he told me that, he said that's what

11 his crew does. He says I am with a crew. That's

12 what we do. That's our thing. We do the

13 robberies and we do the burglaries.

14 Q. Were any of these conversations on

15 tape?

16 A. Yes, sir, this was all recorded. He

17 indicated to me that he was very upset with Marco

18 because during a period of time Marco had made a

19 lot of money off him because they fenced all of

20 their items through Marco and whatever, but Bobby

21 was hurting for money and was real upset because

22 I wouldn't let him rob the game. I initially

23 didn't want him to rob the game because Marco was

24 going to do it and I didn't want to get Bobby


1 involved in this particular thing. When Marco's

2 crew couldn't do it, Bobby found out that day.

3 He said, look, let us do it. Ask Marco to give

4 us the okay to do it.

5 Q. Did you follow up with Marco D'Amico?

6 A. Yes, sir. So I am wearing a wire

7 again, I am talking to Marco. Marco gave the

8 okay for Bobby's crew to rob the game.

9 Q. Did that indicate to you what

10 positions in the mob Marco D'Amico had in

11 relation to Bobby Abbinanti?

12 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.

13 What his conclusion is as to the relationship out

14 of this, there is no foundation for it.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, except that he was

16 involved in organized crime and with these

17 individuals for years and I think he can speak to

18 how he fixes in his mind the structure of the

19 various individuals in the mob.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, he has

21 already testified to that. You don't have to ask

22 him his opinion. He testified he had to go ask

23 his permission. Obviously there is something

24 there in the hierarchy of whatever organization


1 it is.

2 Your street taxes you are paying, what

3 did you have to pay? You said you had to pay

4 something.

5 THE WITNESS: I was paying Marco $1,000 a

6 month.


8 THE WITNESS: To supposedly be allowed to

9 run a bookmaking operation, a small bookmaking

10 operation.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Nothing to do with the

12 amount that you handled?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Marco told me over and

14 over again that, you know, don't lie to me about

15 the amount you are doing because if you are doing

16 more, it is going to cost you more.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: What did you tell him

18 you were doing?

19 THE WITNESS: I told him I had about six

20 people that I was booking.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. How much money?

22 THE WITNESS: I didn't -- I didn't make it

23 clear. I said -- I said I allowed them to bet

24 between 500 and 1,000 to bet, I believe is what I


1 told him I was allowing them to bet. I believe I

2 indicated I had a very limited amount of people.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was your tax?

4 THE WITNESS: $1,000 a month.


6 Q. Mr. Cooley, let me take you to

7 another -- well, are you finished with what

8 occurred?

9 A. Well, no. Again, to finish up on that

10 particular thing, that was one of the -- that

11 was -- one of the crimes they were charged with

12 even though they didn't pull off the robbery,

13 what happened was I went up to Wisconsin, Bobby

14 called me when I was up there. He had his crew

15 up there ready to go. We had the house all set.

16 I was up in the house and while they

17 were driving around -- they dropped somebody off

18 by the house to commit the robbery and as they

19 drove around, they saw a policeman sitting a

20 block or two away in the back side of where we

21 were.

22 While they were waiting for him to

23 leave, they finally got tired, Bobby told me they

24 got tired of waiting for him to leave.


1 When they they came in to do the

2 robbery, the work car, I believe the air hose or

3 the water hose on the work car blew and by now it

4 was about 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock in the morning and

5 they attempted to get it fixed and when they

6 couldn't, they called off the robbery because

7 things weren't just right at that time.

8 Q. Was this attempted robbery something

9 that was charged in any subsequent indictment?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Against who?

12 A. Against Marco and Bobby, both Marco

13 D'Amico and Bobby Abbinanti.

14 Q. What were the results of that?

15 A. They pled guilty to the attempt.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Cooley, let me fix in time

17 your -- the practice of law here and what you're

18 doing in the '70s. You attended law school

19 during what period?

20 A. I went to night school at Chicago Kent

21 College of Law, which became IIT. I went from --

22 I graduated in 1970 and I was in school almost

23 five years going to night school.

24 Q. Were you also -- did you hold the job


1 as a policeman at that time?

2 A. I was a full-time police officer, yes,

3 sir.

4 Q. When did you begin to practice law?

5 A. As soon as I passed the bar. A couple

6 days after I passed the bar I took my first case.

7 Q. So, what year was that?

8 A. 1970.

9 Q. Did there come a time when you worked

10 on a case relating to a bar called Mother's?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. How early on in your career as a

13 lawyer was that?

14 A. Shortly after I started practicing.

15 Q. How did you get involved in this case?

16 A. Marco brought the case to me.

17 Q. And what was the case about?

18 A. There was a group of kids that were

19 probably in their early 20s that were involved in

20 a big fight over at Mother's. It was a bar over

21 on Division Street. They had beaten up the

22 bartenders and kind of wrecked the place.

23 Q. And did you understand from

24 Mr. D'Amico whether they were involved in any


1 organized crime?

2 A. Well, the parents. Some of the

3 parents of some of the boys were from the 26th

4 Street group and Marco indicated that their

5 fathers were connected and were very concerned

6 about making sure the boys didn't get a

7 conviction because some of them were in college

8 and they didn't want them to get a conviction.

9 Q. Did you receive any specific

10 instructions from Marco D'Amico about how to

11 handle that case?

12 A. Well, he indicated, find out if I

13 could make certain that I could get them off or

14 don't take the case.

15 Q. Did you take the case?

16 A. Yes, sir. I made -- I checked and

17 found I could take care of the matter and I took

18 the case.

19 Q. How did you take care of the matter?

20 A. Actually I knew the judge involved in

21 the case. He was a good friend of mine and I

22 knew this kid Ronnie who was one of the main

23 bartenders or one of the main bouncers over at

24 Mother's and he was a personal friend of mine and


1 I got ahold of him and he indicated they would

2 drop the charges.

3 Q. Did -- is that ultimately what

4 happened to the case?

5 A. Well, again, during that time there

6 was a lot of heat -- heat on some of the matters

7 and even though the people wanted to drop the

8 charges, you couldn't unless the judge would let

9 them do that. And the judge agreed, too, to let

10 them dismiss the charges so all the boys would

11 cut loose.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: But the charges were

13 dropped, though, before you --

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, yes, sir.


16 Q. Is there any record of that case now

17 to your knowledge?

18 A. Oh, I doubt it. I am certain after we

19 had expunged even the arrests.

20 Q. Why would you do that?

21 A. It was a matter of -- we did it all

22 the time. It was a matter of course. So people

23 would keep their records clean so if they get

24 arrested again, any time they get arrested it


1 looks like it's the first time they are

2 arrested. You could always get them supervision

3 the first time on almost any misdemeanor case.

4 Q. Did you have occasion to discuss the

5 handling of this case with Mr. D'Amico after you

6 did it?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Tell us about that conversation.

9 A. Well, he was -- he indicated the

10 people were very pleased with the fact that I was

11 able to handle it because a couple of attorneys

12 that they contacted couldn't assure them of a --

13 they could resolve the matter.

14 Q. What people were happy?

15 A. The parents of the boys. The mob guys

16 from the 26th Street.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are we talking

18 about here, what names?

19 THE WITNESS: Oh, I don't recall who they

20 were at the time. It was some of the -- it was

21 some of the -- this is when I first began getting

22 involved with some of those people and I was just

23 told that the fathers of some of the boys, not

24 even which fathers, were very concerned about


1 making sure the kids didn't have any record.


3 Q. Did you get -- were you -- did you

4 give Mr. D'Amico any business cards at that time?

5 A. Oh, he asked for some and, again, I

6 started getting a lot of business from not only

7 that area but also from Marco's group and from

8 other groups right after that.

9 Q. So, was this case something that --

10 from this case you received referrals from other

11 mob members and associates?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. CARMELL: Wait. The last part, from

14 other mob members and associates. He got other

15 referrals was his testimony. We haven't gotten

16 who these people are.

17 MR. BOSTWICK: Let's ask.


19 A. It was a very short time after this

20 that I began getting a lot of gambling cases, a

21 lot of other cases from all around the city, from

22 not just the 26th Street group, from Cicero, from

23 Elmwood Park, from the Rush Street area. I

24 started getting a lot of business from all around


1 the city.

2 Q. Did you get referrals from the 26th

3 Street or Chinatown area?

4 A. Yes, sir, I did.

5 Q. Over a period of time?

6 A. There was a long period of time after

7 this where Marco would actually bring me all the

8 cases and like especially the gambling cases I

9 would charge them $1,000 flat fee for every

10 gambling case he brought me and he would charge

11 them whatever he charged them.

12 There was a long period of time after

13 that when all my -- a lot of my business came

14 directly through Marco.

15 Q. Approximately what period of time was

16 this?

17 A. This lasted for maybe a year or two.

18 Q. What is the Chinatown crew?

19 A. The Chinatown -- I call them the

20 Chinatown crew, but that's the group that --

21 that's the group that is in charge of the area

22 around 26th Street over there on the east side of

23 the city, southeast side of the city.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are these folks


1 who are sending you the business? I know Marco

2 brings it in. But who are the persons on the

3 other end? Who are the people who are supposedly

4 sending you business?

5 THE WITNESS: Bookmakers, different

6 bookmakers, different people that are paying.

7 I learned -- I learned again, and

8 there was no attorney-client privilege in a lot

9 of these things with Marco because --

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Marco is not the

11 client.

12 THE WITNESS: Right. Marco was not the

13 client.

14 But what Marco was doing was Marco

15 would -- a lot of people had the impression that

16 I was connected, I was part of their basic family

17 or their operation and a lot of people after a

18 period of time began to ask me can we come to you

19 direct without going through Marco because

20 apparently he was charging a lot more money than

21 I was getting on these particular cases.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you have an idea,

23 though, when you say you were getting referrals,

24 who were the individuals who were referring them


1 to Marco? You said they were referrals. We are

2 not talking about the individual Defendants.


4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you know the

5 identity of somebody, let's say, from the

6 Chinatown group?

7 THE WITNESS: From this group I knew who it

8 was. Angelo LaPietra was the main boss during

9 that time and probably was until the time he went

10 to -- he went away.

11 But I also became very familiar and

12 very friendly, in fact, I started associating for

13 a period of about four or five years at least and

14 spending a lot of my time over there in the 26th

15 Street area. That's where I used to go to a

16 place called the Redwood and I hung in there for

17 years.

18 I used to go to -- I eventually

19 belonged to their social club. I joined up with

20 their social club. I used to go to the dice game

21 up there.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: The question I am

23 asking, you are practicing and Marco keeps

24 bringing these cases. Who is it that is


1 referring them over to you, Angelo Dipetri?

2 THE WITNESS: Again, it gets a little

3 more -- even more confusing after that because

4 after I was practicing about actually about five

5 years or six years I formed a partnership.

6 Sr. -- John D'Arco --

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: All I was trying to do

8 was clean up the record. You put your own

9 evidence on. I was going to get the identity of

10 the referrals.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: We will go to each one of

12 these things he is talking about. We will get to

13 them in seriatim and it becomes clear.



16 Q. Let me ask you about what you left

17 off. Did there come a time when you joined

18 another attorney in practice?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Who was that attorney?

21 A. John D'Arco, Sr. and Pat DeLeo.

22 Q. Who were they and how did that come

23 about?

24 A. John D'Arco, Jr., he may have been a


1 State Rep but shortly after there became a State

2 Senator. He was actually one of the -- one of

3 the top Senators and most powerful Senators in

4 Springfield.

5 His brother-in-law, Pat DeLeo, was a

6 corporation counsel, but he was in charge of the

7 license court here in Chicago.

8 Sr., John D'Arco, Sr., who was the

9 First Ward committeeman and one of the main

10 contacts between organized crime and the city and

11 the unions and whatever, one day stopped me in

12 Counselor's.

13 I had just finished a case before

14 Judge Scotillo and he asked if I was interested

15 in teaching his son Johnny how to practice law.

16 And I told him that -- and I realized who he was

17 and how important and powerful these people were

18 and I said, well, rather than teach him, why

19 don't we form like a partnership where I do all

20 the business and we cut up whatever the fees

21 are.

22 And that was how it first began.

23 Rather than just teach him how to practice, I

24 thought I am better cutting myself in for a piece


1 of the whole pie.

2 Q. How long did you have this

3 arrangement, this partnership with Mr. D'Arco?

4 A. Over three years, a little over three

5 years.

6 Q. What period of time was that?

7 A. From about 1976 to probably about

8 close to 1980.

9 Q. Did you continue to get Outfit

10 business while you practiced together?

11 A. I am --

12 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tell us what kind of

14 business it is. Who are the individuals? What

15 was the name of your partnership?

16 THE WITNESS: Well, actually they were

17 Kugler, DeLeo and D'Arco. I was my own. I had

18 my own name and they opened their office up right

19 next to my office at 100 North LaSalle. So, we

20 were next door to each other.

21 The reason we did that is because I

22 represented a lot of the bad guys, a lot of the

23 mob and mob-connected guys. Johnny was a

24 Senator. His partner initially Patty was a


1 corporation counsel. So, none of the bad guys

2 were supposed to be seen around these particular

3 people.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: So, you didn't have a

5 partnership but you shared space. But you

6 traded --

7 THE WITNESS: No, we didn't even share

8 space.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: You traded business.

10 THE WITNESS: They had their office, I had

11 mine. The initial partnership, we called it a

12 partnership. Nothing was in writing. It was all

13 strictly our arrangement.

14 I was supposed to handle all the

15 criminal work that came in, any of the -- even

16 the ward business that came in to them, because

17 we got all the First Ward business, any of the

18 business that came in on a criminal basis would

19 be referred to me.

20 The people would be sent over to my

21 office because we didn't want the bad guys going

22 into their office and being seen going in their

23 office. I was to handle all the business and we

24 would split the fees 50/50. I would get 50


1 percent, the other half would go to their firm.

2 They had their own firm, Kugler, DeLeo and

3 D'Arco.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's sort of a

5 referral fee.

6 THE WITNESS: It was -- it was a very loose

7 arrangement.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right, okay.


10 Q. And kept that way purposely?

11 A. Absolutely.

12 Q. Let me ask you during this period of

13 time, which is the late '70s, did you continue to

14 gamble?

15 A. Oh, yes, sir.

16 Q. How often did you gamble?

17 A. I gambled most every day of my life

18 during that period.

19 Q. Also in the '80s?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. How much money did you gamble a week?

22 A. Oh, many weeks I would -- I would move

23 over a million dollars back and forth through

24 different bookmakers.


1 Q. How is it possible for somebody to

2 move over a million dollars through different

3 bookmakers in the course of a week?

4 A. Very easy because I dealt with

5 anywhere from four or five to ten bookmakers at a

6 given time. I had limits where I could bet with

7 a lot of them minimum a thousand, some of them up

8 to 10,000 a game. On weekends I jacked a lot of

9 games.

10 Q. What does that mean?

11 A. I played for the middle on a lot of

12 games. Both baseball where you have different

13 odds, where you play for the middle, where you

14 don't care. If an underdog wins, you can make

15 money either way.

16 Let's say one bookmaker has a game

17 140, another bookmaker has a game 170. You take

18 one side laying the 140 and you take the other

19 side getting plus 160 on a game. So if an

20 underdog wins, you will make some money on what

21 they call the vig on part of the juice.

22 But with football and with basketball,

23 I played for the middle with the numbers. Let's

24 say you have got a team -- let's say you have got


1 the Bulls maybe are playing, let's say, Phoenix.

2 Maybe with one bookmaker you have got

3 the line -- let's just come up with the line the

4 number 4. The Bulls are a four point favorite.

5 A different bookmaker may have got the line 6

6 points where the Bulls are a six point favorite.

7 I can bet through four or five

8 bookmakers between 15, 20, 30,000 on one team

9 laying the four points. With the other

10 bookmakers I am taking six points for maybe the

11 same amount of money, 40 or 50,000, 30,000,

12 depending on how many makers I had with different

13 numbers.

14 If the Bulls win by four points, I

15 break even on all my bets with the one side and I

16 collect on all my bets from the other side. So,

17 it's a win-win situation for me. If it falls on

18 five points, the same way. If it falls on six

19 points, the same way.

20 If it falls on any of the numbers not

21 between 4 and 6, if it falls on 3 or 7 or

22 anything else, I wind up losing just 10 percent

23 of my bet. I lose to the one bookmaker whatever

24 the amounts are and I collect back and I pay the


1 others the same amount plus 10 percent, which is

2 the vig.

3 So, I was always looking for a lot of

4 bookmakers I could play with because I loved

5 looking for numbers and playing where I -- you

6 get a 20 to 1 payoff. If a game falls in the

7 middle your payoff is 20 to 1 because you will

8 win -- let's say you are betting $1,000. If you

9 are betting 1,000 on one team and you are betting

10 a thousand dollars on the opposite team, if it

11 doesn't fall in the number, you lose 1,100 to one

12 bookmaker and you win 1,000 to another. Your

13 total loss is $1,000. If you --

14 Q. Or $100?

15 A. Your total loss --

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: 100 bucks.


18 A. Your total loss is ten dollars. If

19 the game falls on 5, if the numbers are 4 and 6,

20 I collect 1,000 from one bookmaker -- I collect

21 from the bookmaker where I am laying 4 and I

22 collect from the other bookmaker where I am

23 getting 6. If it falls on 5, I collect both. So

24 I win $2,000. The most I have at risk is $100.


1 MR. CARMELL: From the expressions

2 apparently everybody but me was a virgin in

3 this. I understand exactly.

4 As an aside, I used to have a friend

5 who decided that he would be a good fellow and

6 work for his father on Saturdays and the reason

7 he did it was because at that time his father's

8 plant had a switchboard and he could plug in to

9 all of the bookies that he knew and at that time

10 we called it then the middle.

11 THE WITNESS: It's called middling.

12 MR. CARMELL: Get the middle end up that

13 way.

14 So I hope that's been educational to

15 all the rest of you.


17 A. This is why I needed a lot of

18 bookmakers to bet with and a lot of bookmakers

19 liked my action because I give them plenty of

20 action. I give them a lot of action.


22 Q. For purposes of our hearing, you're

23 right, I don't think that any of us are going to

24 go right out and try to replicate that.


1 For purposes of our hearing the point

2 is that you met and dealt with a number of

3 bookmakers in the area, in the Chicago area, over

4 an extended period of time?

5 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

6 Q. Did you understand that all those

7 bookmakers had to pay street tax?

8 A. Yes, sir, everybody paid street tax.

9 Q. Were you ever a bookmaker yourself?

10 A. Well, when I was -- initially when I

11 was a policeman I only handled one person. I

12 didn't pay at that time.

13 But when I began working for the

14 Government, when I began wearing a wire, I let

15 Marco know that I had a small operation and they

16 told me -- I was whistled in and they told me I

17 had to start paying street tax.

18 Q. What are juice loans?

19 A. Juice loans are money you get from,

20 again, organized crime people as far as I know

21 and where you pay large rates of interest to

22 receive money with no collateral.

23 Q. Did you ever take juice loans to cover

24 some of these -- this betting that you are


1 describing?

2 A. Yes, sir. There were probably four or

3 five times over a period of time when I would

4 need immediate cash to pay off a few bookmakers

5 so I could keep playing with them or play with

6 others.

7 Q. Some of the individuals you placed

8 bets with would have been Marco D'Amico and Bobby

9 Abbinanti?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Did you ever meet an individual named

12 Frank Caruso?

13 A. I actually had seen all three -- there

14 were three Carusos that I knew from the 26th

15 Street area. I have known all three of them -- I

16 have known and seen all three of them for a long

17 period of time.

18 Q. Okay. Why don't we do it this way.

19 We have got a couple of exhibit books here with

20 photos. Can I ask you to take a look at these

21 photographs?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Who are those individuals? The

24 numbers of the exhibits are Exhibit 6G, 6F and


1 6E.

2 A. Well, 6F is the -- I always thought

3 that these three were brothers. I just had that

4 impression, that they were all brothers. I

5 recently have found out that they are not

6 brothers, but, again, I always had the impression

7 that all three of them were brothers. I would

8 see them a lot in the 26th Street area, around

9 Counselor's Row and a lot of people I dealt with

10 were with them and dealt with the same group.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Counselor's Row was a

12 restaurant, right?

13 THE WITNESS: That's where Pat Marcy held

14 court, Counselor's Row.


16 Q. Let's get into one at a time here.

17 6F, did you ever meet that individual?

18 A. Yes, sir, I have.

19 Q. Who did you meet him through?

20 A. I had seen him many times even before

21 that, but Bobby Abbinanti was the first person

22 that I was introduced to him through.

23 Q. Did Mr. Abbinanti refer to him by any

24 nickname?


1 A. I believe Tootsy.

2 Q. How many -- where did you see this

3 individual?

4 A. Initially?

5 Q. What places?

6 A. He was one of the group that used to

7 socialize with a group I socialized with, with

8 Richie, with Butchie, with --

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: It would help if you

10 give us the last name of those persons.


12 A. I am sorry. Well, Richie was Richie

13 "The Cat" we called him. I believe Cat is a --

14 Richie was one of the group, one of the 26th

15 Street Crew that used to come all of the time

16 down to Rush Street. I lived for a long period

17 of time right on Rush Street. I lived at

18 Newberry Plaza right at the middle of Rush

19 Street, but this is the one that would come at

20 times and socialize with us there.

21 Q. When you say this one, you mean 6F,

22 the individual in 6F?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: What do you know him


1 as?

2 THE WITNESS: Bobby introduced him to me the

3 first time as Tootsy and Bobby many times

4 referred to him. This is the one that he

5 referred to by name.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: So you are referring

7 to 6F as being introduced to this person as

8 Tootsy?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Well, the first

10 time I do recall -- actually I never talked to

11 him that much before that. I was very friendly

12 with Richie Catazone, I was very friendly with

13 Butchie who was a policeman.


15 Q. Who is Butchie?

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is Butchie's

17 name?

18 THE WITNESS: I always knew him as Butchie.

19 He was Pete Mazullo's bodyguard. He was always

20 with this crew. He quit the police department

21 many years ago, but during one period -- years

22 ago Bobby -- I was always looking as I said for

23 new bookmakers and Bobby --

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Bobby Abbinanti?



2 A. Abbinanti, I was betting through

3 Bobby. Bobby was working through Marco's group

4 but Bobby -- I was always looking for new places

5 for outs and Bobby one day when we were at Faces

6 introduced me to him and then told me if I

7 wanted, he could get me a number and I could play

8 with his group, I could play with his office.


10 THE WITNESS: With his office, with --


12 Q. The individual in 6F?

13 A. With Tootsy, with Tootsy's office.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: As we are going along,

15 when you are making a remark, we don't know who

16 you are talking about. I know, but the record

17 doesn't reflect that.


19 A. He told me he could get me a number

20 and I could play with his office.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: And could play with?

22 THE WITNESS: His office.


24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.



2 Q. What did you take that to mean, play

3 with his office?

4 A. He would get me an identification

5 number and phone number and I could start making

6 bets with that bookmaking operation.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: You could call in, say

8 this is 26?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: And if you won or

11 lost, then you settled up later. They knew 26

12 was up or down X amount of dollars, right?

13 THE WITNESS: The way it was, I didn't

14 settle up with him.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: You settle up with

16 somebody?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. There was somebody

18 else from the group that I was introduced to and

19 Bobby made the contact and I met with this other

20 person for a period of about six months or so. I

21 settled up with him every week.


23 Q. When you say him, who is him?

24 A. The name just doesn't register right


1 now, but there was a period of time -- in fact,

2 with this particular one, the person I settled up

3 with, he was part of the Chinatown Crew. The FBI

4 came to see me years ago because they had my --

5 they had my phone number and my phone on a tape

6 recording where I am giving my name when this

7 person called looking for me to settle up on

8 something. He was the same person a few years

9 before who I had settled up with on my bets with

10 Tootsy's group. But, again, I also started

11 betting a short time later with a couple of other

12 offices from that same neighborhood.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Stay on the subject.

14 We are on the subject of Tootsy here. Go ahead.


16 Q. With respect to Tootsy, the individual

17 in 6F, did you ever see him in bars or around

18 town with Mr. Abbinanti?

19 A. Oh, all the time, yes, sir.

20 Q. When you say all the time, how often

21 and what period of time?

22 A. Bobby was down there a lot. I was

23 down there two, three days a week. I lived two

24 blocks away. Bobby lived in the Elmwood Park


1 area, actually the City of Chicago and Bobby

2 would come down once a week or so and there was a

3 period of time where Tootsy would be down there a

4 lot.

5 Q. What types of bars and establishments

6 did you see Tootsy in?

7 A. Faces, Billy's, what was it,

8 Sweetwater was there, Arnie's, but this group,

9 basically they hung in Faces a couple of nights a

10 week, on Wednesday and Friday nights, every

11 Wednesday and every Friday basically most of the

12 group would be there, also some bars on Division

13 Street that I didn't go to.

14 Q. When you say the group, who do you

15 mean?

16 A. There was a whole crew of them. There

17 was usually about anywhere from maybe 6 to 10,

18 sometimes 15, 20 people.

19 Q. And were -- was it your understanding

20 that any of those individuals were involved in

21 organized crime?

22 A. They were all mob connected. They

23 were all organized crime.

24 Q. How do you know that?


1 A. Well, we had our own little -- when

2 you went into Faces, we had our own little

3 section there by the corner of the bar. Believe

4 me, that was our section. If somebody else came

5 over, they'd get their head busted at times over

6 there in that section. They had no business

7 being there.

8 Q. What was the nature of Bobby

9 Abbinanti's relationship with Frank Caruso?

10 A. He was very close to him. He was

11 very, very tight with him.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: We are talking about

13 Tootsy, right?


15 Q. Tootsy, right, the individual in 6F,

16 is that correct?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And did you speak to Mr. Abbinanti

19 about Frank Caruso or his position in the Outfit?

20 A. Oh, he made it -- again, I talked

21 to -- I knew Bobby very well at that time and

22 Bobby loved him. He loved Bobby. Bobby had

23 busted a few heads for him over there in the

24 place.


1 Q. So when you say him, you are talking

2 about Frank Caruso, No. 6F?

3 A. This whole group was constantly --

4 there were constant fights or whatever in these

5 places when some stranger would come over and

6 have a cute girl or something and they wanted

7 it. It was a very interesting, you know, group

8 that they had there.

9 Q. Can you describe a little more -- in a

10 little more detail how you -- what you viewed in

11 terms of Mr. -- well, this Tootsy's relationship

12 with other people in this bar?

13 A. Well, in this group there were two

14 people that were for whatever reason treated

15 different than most everybody else, Tootsy and

16 Richie Catazone. I mean, the two -- when the two

17 of them were there, everybody got them their

18 drinks, everybody basically catered to them more

19 so than the rest of the group.

20 Q. Did you ever see any of these

21 individuals pay for their drinks?

22 A. None of us paid for our drinks in that

23 particular section.

24 Q. Why was that?


1 A. We just didn't. Never did. They

2 would constantly just pass the drinks out and

3 they never got a check there. Richie told me we

4 don't pay here.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Which bar are we

6 talking about?

7 THE WITNESS: Faces. Same thing at

8 Ditka's. When Ditka's became very popular, same

9 thing there. Richie would tell me, we don't pay

10 here.


12 Q. Who is Richie?

13 A. Richie Catazone. We don't pay here.

14 Q. Describe for us a little more who

15 Richie Catazone is and the nature of your

16 relationship with him?

17 A. Richie I knew for, again, many years

18 and when I first met him I -- you know, he was

19 older than the rest of the group. He was short,

20 he was kind of fat, he was overweight, looked

21 like -- he never dressed real well like a lot of

22 the others did. The rest of them, a lot of them

23 dressed very, very well. Richie just looked like

24 he didn't belong in the group and yet everybody


1 totally catered to him, totally. Whenever he was

2 around, he was obviously in charge.

3 Q. What was the nature of your

4 relationship with him?

5 A. Richie and I were very close.

6 Initially I liked him a lot and he treated me

7 super. He sent me business, he referred me

8 business. I mean, obviously when I was there, he

9 always picked up all my tabs. He had no tab, but

10 I drank free when I was around him all of the

11 time.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: How did you meet him?

13 Did you give him this deference also?

14 THE WITNESS: You mean did I basically cater

15 to him?


17 THE WITNESS: I was nice to all of the

18 people. I was again just a friendly sort

19 myself. I knew what they were, who they were.

20 They were also good sources of business of mine.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: You have to start

22 someplace. You walk in one day and you see

23 people catering to him. Now, did this seem

24 strange, did you join in it or what?


1 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, I was me. You

2 know, I treated him like everybody else. That

3 was me. That was my nature. I liked all of the

4 other guys too. Initially when I first met these

5 people, I liked them a lot. I thought they were

6 a lot of fun, but, again, I was just -- without

7 even asking initially, I just seemed -- I was

8 like caught off guard because he didn't like the

9 type -- I mean, I have been around the mob guys

10 for three, four, five years and usually the

11 bosses, you know, look as such. He just didn't

12 seem to fit in with this entire group. This

13 group were mostly younger people. I mean, they

14 were a pretty rough group, and yet they totally

15 catered to Richie in particular.



18 Q. Let me show you the binder marked

19 Exhibit 6 and I'll just ask you to flip through

20 those photos and see if you see a picture of

21 Richie Catazone?

22 A. That's Richie.

23 Q. And that's behind Tab 6I?

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q. Why don't you continue and see if you

2 see Marco D'Amico in any?

3 A. Marco is the next picture, right

4 here.

5 Q. That's 6J?

6 A. Yes, sir.





11 Q. During the 1970s and early 1980s, you

12 are still doing legal work for various members of

13 the Outfit?

14 A. During what years?

15 Q. The late '70s and early '80s.

16 A. Late '70s, early '80s, yes, because

17 there was a period of time when I broke away

18 from -- there was a period of time when I broke

19 away from Johnny and I broke off our

20 partnership. I moved out to the suburbs and I

21 more or less wanted to get away from a lot of

22 this business. There was a period of time there

23 when I didn't do a whole lot with them in terms

24 of legal work. I still socialized with the


1 people over there, some of my own friends on 26th

2 Street, but I was getting away from the work that

3 I had been doing for a long time.

4 Q. When you say Johnny, you mean Johnny

5 D'Arco, Junior?

6 A. Yes, sir. I forged a partnership with

7 another senator on the south side, Senator Lemke,

8 I opened up an office on Archer Avenue and

9 started a partnership with Senator Lemke.

10 Q. Did you do any work at the direction

11 of Pat Marcy?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Can you describe the nature of the

14 work that you were doing with or for Pat Marcy

15 during this period of time?

16 A. Well, it was after I broke away from

17 that group that I got a phone call one day and

18 that's when Pat Marcy brought me the On Leon

19 case, the Chinese murder case.

20 MR. CARMELL: Can we fix the period of time,

21 the break?



24 Q. Can you do that?


1 A. Again, I believe the On Leon case, I

2 believe that was around '81, somewhere around

3 there. Again, I believe it was somewhere around

4 there, but I had broken off my partnership with

5 D'Arco and DeLeo and I moved out to the suburbs.

6 I moved away. And as I say, Pat Marcy called me

7 and told me to see Freddie. And when I saw

8 Freddie, Freddie told me that they were going to

9 give me this murder case.

10 Q. Who is Freddie?

11 A. Fred Roti.

12 Q. And when you say give you this murder

13 case, what were you supposed to do with this

14 murder case?

15 A. Well, in particular, I wasn't supposed

16 to tell the people I was involved with, the First

17 Ward people. I was supposed to get in touch with

18 Wilson Moy I believe was his name. I was

19 supposed to get in touch with a Wilson Moy and

20 make arrangements to see him, but I was

21 specifically told not to meet him down there, not

22 to meet him -- in fact, at that time my office

23 was still at 100 North LaSalle -- it wasn't 100

24 North. It was at 180.


1 When I broke away from Johnny, I

2 initially moved to 180 North LaSalle for about a

3 year, year and a half and I was specifically told

4 not to tell Wilson that I was connected with the

5 First Ward people, and I met with Wilson Moy and

6 Wilson Moy told me that he was interested in

7 representation of three people that were charged

8 with murder and he was told -- he told me he was

9 told by Freddie I was somebody who could possibly

10 take care of the case, make certain that there

11 was an acquittal in the case.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Was Wilson Moy a

13 lawyer or just a representative of these people?

14 THE WITNESS: He was the unofficial mayor of

15 Chinatown. He was the one who ran the -- he was

16 the one who ran the big gambling operation they

17 had there in Chinatown.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: It is a person well

19 known in Chinatown?

20 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, he was well known.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: And he went to see

22 him?

23 THE WITNESS: I had him meet me at Arnie's.

24 I had him meet me over by where I live. I had


1 him come to meet me just to get him totally away

2 from the area. I had him meet me at Arnie's

3 outdoor cafe in front of where I live.


5 Q. Just to tie this up, give us a brief

6 description of where this happened?

7 A. I met him and told him --

8 MR. CARMELL: When he is done with this

9 subject, can we have a break?

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: I was just about to

11 suggest that.

12 MR. CARMELL: I know he is finishing one

13 subject, so we can do that.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Just as you break,

15 that will be fine.


17 A. The first time I met him, I basically

18 told him I would check into the matter and decide

19 what it was going to cost him, you know, for the

20 case because I was told not to give him a fee in

21 the case until I talked to Pat Marcy.

22 I then went and saw Pat and told Pat

23 that, you know, I had met with Wilson. Pat gave

24 me some police reports about the incidents that


1 took place. It took place over there in

2 Chinatown, and Pat asked me what I thought I

3 could -- what I could hit him for, and I told Pat

4 I was going to try and get 100,000 off of him.

5 And I then arranged to meet him again

6 and told him for 100,000 -- without specifically

7 saying I would fix the case, I made it clear to

8 him that for 100,000 we would be fine. I was a

9 little nervous about talking to a stranger and

10 telling a stranger out and out, you know, it

11 would cost you 100,000 for a fix, but I made it

12 clear to Wilson for 100,000 his kids would walk.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: How many defendants?

14 THE WITNESS: There were three.


16 Q. What ultimately happened?

17 A. There were four that were charged.

18 One had fled and there were three that were going

19 to go to trial.

20 Q. What ultimately happened in that case?

21 A. We fixed the case before Judge

22 Maloney.

23 Q. How did you do that?

24 A. Through Pat Marcy. Pat Marcy took


1 care of all of the arrangements.

2 Q. And the ultimate result was acquittals

3 on all of these individuals?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: They elected to go to

6 a bench trial?

7 THE WITNESS: Of course it was a bench trial

8 with Maloney.


10 Q. Was the judge ultimately convicted of

11 taking that fix?

12 A. Eventually, yeah. Eventually years

13 later in Federal Court, yes, he was found guilty

14 of that among other fixes.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: That's a good point to break.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We will take

17 about a 15-minute break here and give the

18 reporters a chance to cool down.

19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and gentlemen,

21 we're back and the hearing will continue and I

22 believe you're questioning, Mr. Bostwick. Go

23 ahead.



1 Q. Mr. Cooley, let me -- we've talked a

2 little bit about some of the cases that you've

3 participated in fixing. I want to get into one

4 of those with a little more specificity.

5 Did there come a time when you were

6 asked to defend Harry Aleman?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Approximately when was this?

9 A. I believe it was around 1977.

10 Q. Who asked you to do this?

11 A. Pat Marcy. Well, actually it was a

12 group. I mean Sr., John D'Arco, Sr. I had just

13 gotten involved -- I had been involved with them

14 for a short period of time and John D'Arco, Sr.

15 indicated Pat wanted to talk to me about

16 something.

17 I remember coming down into

18 Counselor's. I was upstairs at the time. And we

19 went out in the hall and we started talking

20 about -- and Pat Marcy did the basic talking

21 about this particular case.

22 Q. What did he tell you about it?

23 A. He asked if I had a judge -- actually

24 he asked if I had a judge over at 26th Street


1 that could handle a murder case. It's a very hot

2 matter. It's a very heated matter. He said you

3 make certain if you have got somebody, you've got

4 somebody.

5 I asked him what the case was. He

6 told me Harry Aleman.

7 Q. Who -- were you told or did you know

8 who Harry Aleman was?

9 A. I knew who he was, yes.

10 Q. How's that?

11 A. Well, he was notorious as a mob

12 hitman.

13 Q. How did you know that?

14 A. I knew it from my -- from my travels.

15 I was associated with a lot of people that were

16 associated with him.

17 Q. What --

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think there was a

19 lot of newspaper articles about that -- about

20 Harry Aleman at the time. I think it was --

21 citizens on the street would know about.

22 THE WITNESS: Well, I knew him, too, because

23 I used to go down to Taylor Street at this time.

24 I am partners with Johnny D'Arco and I used to


1 spend some time down at Taylor Street down at

2 Mama Sue's. That was his place and I would see

3 him and Butchie and those people over there.


5 THE WITNESS: Butchie Petrocelli.


7 Q. Is that the Butchie that you were

8 mentioning earlier and struggling with the name?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. You mentioned a Butchie.

11 A. No, Butchie Petrocelli was a mob

12 hitman. The other Butchie I am talking about was

13 a policeman and I never -- to this day I don't

14 know his last name. I knew Butchie for ten

15 years, but I never knew his last name. I just

16 knew him Butchie.

17 Q. All right. When you say that Pat

18 Marcy indicated to you that he wanted you to find

19 a judge that could handle the matter, did you

20 understand that to mean fix the case?

21 A. Certainly, yes.

22 Q. What did you do?

23 A. I got ahold of a judge that I knew

24 personally and had a few meetings with him and


1 found out that for $10,000 he would fix the

2 case.

3 Q. Who was that judge?

4 A. Frank Wilson.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: How did you -- could

6 you arrange to get the case to him?

7 THE WITNESS: Pat Marcy did it. He didn't

8 think it could be done. It was done. Pat

9 said -- because he was the same judge who had

10 been SOJ'd. He had already been named as a judge

11 in the case. Tom Maloney --


13 Q. What is an SOJ?

14 A. Tom Maloney was originally

15 representing Harry Aleman. Tom Maloney was about

16 to be named a judge. Tom Maloney was told that

17 the Supreme Court was going to appoint him as a

18 judge, a full circuit judge, and he wanted to

19 handle Harry's case before he left, but he

20 couldn't fix it. He couldn't get a judge who

21 would guarantee an acquittal.

22 When he -- when the case was first

23 assigned to a judge at 26th Street, he filed a

24 substitution, which you are allowed to do here in


1 Cook County. You can substitute for any judge

2 for no reason.

3 Since it was a serious felony, he was

4 allowed to name another judge who he also did not

5 want to be tried before. The judge he named

6 happened to be Frank Wilson because he had a

7 reputation as being a very straight judge.

8 Q. Did you personally pay off the judge

9 in this matter?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Where did you get that money?

12 A. Well, initially I gave the judge the

13 first deposit and first 2,500 of my own money,

14 but I got that money back from Pat Marcy. And I

15 got the last 7,500 along with some money for

16 myself from Pat Marcy.

17 Q. Where did you give the judge this

18 money?

19 A. The first amount I remember I gave him

20 over at Greco's, the restaurant that I was a part

21 owner in out in the south side of -- actually it

22 was Evergreen Park, and the other money I gave

23 him in a restaurant over on Western after the

24 case was over.


1 I gave him the last 7,500 in a

2 restaurant over on Western. I think the Western

3 restaurant was Sommerset or Sommerville or

4 something like that.

5 Q. Did you have discussions with Pat

6 Marcy about the amounts of money it would take to

7 fix this case?

8 A. Well, Pat just told me find out what

9 he wants, and I worked out the fee of 10,000 with

10 the judge and Pat agreed that that would be

11 fine.

12 After the case began and we saw the

13 heat in the case, I told Pat we should give him

14 more because it's a real problem situation and

15 Pat just said he agreed to get 10,000. That's

16 all he is going to get, not a nickel more.

17 Q. Did you discuss this matter at all

18 with Fred Roti?

19 A. Fred was around at times during some

20 of the discussions. I don't recall specifically

21 which ones, but Freddie was around at times when

22 we were discussing these things.

23 Q. Ultimately what was the result in

24 Harry Aleman's murder trial?


1 A. He was found not guilty.

2 Q. So the fix worked in effect?

3 A. Yes, it did.

4 Q. Has there been any subsequent case or

5 investigation involving the fix of the Harry

6 Aleman trial?

7 A. Oh, yes. A lot of investigating on it

8 afterwards, after I came forward and gave the

9 information on the case.

10 Q. So you provided information on this

11 matter?

12 A. Yes, when I came to the authorities

13 and indicated I wanted to do some help here in

14 the city. I told them all about that case.

15 Q. What is the current status of this

16 matter to the extent that you understand it?

17 A. The -- there were hearings in the

18 matter and the finding of not guilty was appealed

19 by the state and the judge -- I believe Judge

20 Toomin I believe was the judge who indicated

21 there was in fact no jeopardy, even though he was

22 found not guilty, there was no jeopardy, and they

23 appealed it up to the Supreme Court.

24 And the U.S. Supreme Court just a few


1 months ago refused to hear the matter, so he will

2 be tried again probably the end of the year.

3 Q. What was the basis for the finding

4 that he was -- there was no jeopardy attached?

5 A. Well, the fact that he knew that the

6 fix was in. He was part. I had met with Harry

7 on a few occasions during the fix. He was aware

8 that the judge in fact was to be bribed and he

9 was aware of the fact the judge was going to find

10 him not guilty. Therefore he was never in

11 jeopardy in the case.

12 Q. Did your work on the Harry Aleman case

13 affect your stature in the Outfit?

14 A. Oh, yes. I mean once I did that, I

15 became like a local star with these people.

16 Q. Did you see a difference in the way

17 you were treated when you were gambling or when

18 you were out in the evenings or discussing things

19 with Pat Marcy and others?

20 A. Oh, absolutely after that, yes.

21 Q. What was the change?

22 A. I mean everybody -- it was just a --

23 everybody talked to me a lot more than they ever,

24 especially some of the Outfit guys began to


1 become a lot more friendly with me, discussed a

2 lot more things with me that they had never

3 discussed before. Everywhere I went, I mean,

4 people treated me you might say with respect.

5 Q. This is a point in time during the

6 late '70s when you were going out and gambling in

7 the evenings?

8 A. When I gambled I usually gambled on

9 the telephone. I mean I didn't -- when I was

10 out, I wasn't gambling outside. I would make all

11 my calls from my office or someplace before I

12 went out. I would be out socially with a lot of

13 those people and most of the places I went were

14 frequented by organized crime people.

15 Q. Who were your closest organized crime

16 associates during this period?

17 A. Well, initially --

18 Q. By this period I mean the late '70s,

19 early '80s.

20 A. Even prior to handling Harry's case I

21 used to go out socially once a week with Tony

22 Borcellino. He was a mob enforcer from the Rush

23 Street area. They killed him. They killed him a

24 short while after I -- after I knew him.


1 I used to go out socially with --

2 again, with Marco D'Amico all the time. After

3 I -- after I handled Harry's case I used to see

4 Butchie all the time. I used to see Harry.

5 Q. Butchie Petrocelli?

6 A. Butchie Petrocelli.

7 Q. Harry Aleman?

8 A. He started sending me a lot of

9 business. I started meeting with him at

10 different places and different places.

11 Q. Did you spend time in the 26th Street

12 area partying and gambling?

13 A. Yes, sir. I -- both in Rush Street

14 and in the 26th Street. I became very friendly

15 with Nick who owned the Redwood over there at --

16 he was -- he was not organized crime, but he had

17 a bar in the middle of the neighborhood.

18 A lot of the people came in there and

19 I became very friendly with Dirge.

20 Q. Who is Dirge?

21 A. Dirge -- Dirge was Dirge. I just in

22 the last couple years found out his last name. I

23 never knew his last name.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: We have heard that


1 name before in the record here.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: Right.


4 Q. Dirge was a nickname?

5 A. I believe he was Angelo -- I believe

6 he was Angelo -- one of Angelo's sons-in-law.

7 Again I believe. He indicated that he was

8 married to his daughter. I didn't know if it was

9 a fact or not. But again I believe he was.

10 Q. You saw Richie Catazone during this

11 period?

12 A. I used to see Richie all the time,

13 yes, sir, both at 26th Street area. I used to

14 hang around the Hungry Hound. Larry Pusiteri,

15 the same one who ran the dice game, owned the

16 Hungry Hound. Larry liked having me around

17 there.

18 Larry at that time indicated to me

19 that he ran the dice game for the people there in

20 Chinatown, wanted me to come to see his big dice

21 game.

22 Q. Let's talk about this specifically.

23 Larry Pusiteri, when did you -- when

24 did he approach you and ask you to come to this


1 dice game?

2 A. Well, I had seen Larry -- I had seen

3 Larry in the Rush Street area; but when I owned

4 Greco's, he used to come out there with other --

5 with other organized crime people.

6 Q. And what was Greco's?

7 A. It was a restaurant that I had an

8 interest in over at 95th Street, 3020 West 95th

9 Street was the address.

10 Q. So he approached you in Greco's?

11 A. Well, after we'd leave Greco's -- I

12 would hang there all the time myself. I didn't

13 work out there. I just hung out and socialized.

14 We had people all around the city coming there.

15 All the different families came out there.

16 Q. When you say families, you are talking

17 about Outfit families?

18 A. People from the -- mainly the Elmwood

19 Park crews. They all came out there. Cicero

20 people all came out there. Lombardo's people

21 came out there. Chinatown people came out there.

22 Q. What time is this?

23 A. Well, actually before '77 because I

24 arranged the fix with Harry's case basically in


1 the restaurant. It was probably from '76, '76 to

2 about '80, '81.

3 Q. What did Larry Pusiteri tell you about

4 the gambling operation he was involved in over in

5 the 26th Street area?

6 A. Well, initially he was telling me that

7 he ran a big dice game. He said it's just like

8 in Vegas. You got to come. He had asked me half

9 a dozen times to come. He wanted to show me

10 about this big game that he ran over there. And

11 eventually I did come down there.

12 Q. So you went?

13 A. Yes, I went.

14 Q. Approximately when did you go?

15 A. Probably in -- probably in '78, '79

16 was the first time I -- that I went there. I

17 remember I want with Cal Sirkin.

18 Cal Sirkin was a big bookmaker and a

19 big gambler who played in all the different

20 games. I didn't play in these games. In fact,

21 when I went there, I didn't play in the game. I

22 was not a dice guy.

23 Q. So you went more than once to this

24 dice game on 26th Street?


1 A. I probably went there maybe a dozen

2 times over a period of time. I used to like to

3 go and hang in there. It was a fun place.

4 Q. Over what period of time did you go

5 these dozen times?

6 A. Over a period of two, three years. I

7 was there dozens of times over a period of two,

8 three years.

9 Q. So this is late '70s or early '80s?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Let's describe the situation in

12 detail. Where is this dice game?

13 A. Well, it was -- at that time when I

14 started going, it was in a -- in the store

15 front. It was about, oh, maybe a half a block, a

16 little further down from what I remember east of

17 the Hungry Hound. The Hungry Hound was I believe

18 on 26th Street. It was on the corner. You go

19 across the street and go down the block a little

20 bit and there was a store front there. You walk

21 in what looks like a regular store. I remember

22 the windows, you couldn't see in the windows as

23 you walk by and look in there, but as you walk in

24 the store, you walk in the door and there was a


1 guy standing there. There was a security guy

2 standing there that wouldn't let you in unless he

3 knows who you are or unless you are with somebody

4 who is from -- you know, who is known.

5 You walk into the back and you go

6 through like an area way and you go back into

7 this huge room that suddenly opens up and you go

8 in there and here is an operation just like one

9 of the casinos in Vegas. I mean, loaded with

10 people, all kinds of people in there. I mean, a

11 big game, a good size game.

12 Q. Tell us about the first time you

13 went. How did you get in?

14 A. The first time I went, I went with Cal

15 Sirkin and I had not told Larry or anybody I was

16 coming. Cal, one day I was with him and he said

17 let's go to the game. I said okay. I went. I

18 was with Cal on Rush Street and it was probably

19 about eleven, twelve o'clock. I went to go and

20 watch him.

21 Q. This was about eleven o'clock at

22 night?

23 A. Yeah. I went with him, we walked up

24 and here is some large fellow at the door, and as


1 I go to walk in, I am standing there first, and

2 who the hell are you? I knock on the door. Who

3 the hell are you he is yelling through the door,

4 and then Cal shows his face, and they knew Cal,

5 and they opened the door and Cal said he is with

6 me. This particular person apparently didn't

7 know me.

8 Q. Okay. Now, describe the scene after

9 you go back into the back in a little more detail

10 for us?

11 A. Well, I mean, it was a big room. On

12 the one side there was a dice table, a big dice

13 table. I am also sure there was a second dice

14 table that wasn't in operation. There may have

15 even been two. I remember there was a big dice

16 game, all kinds of people around it, a lot of

17 noise, a lot of people yelling and screaming

18 and --

19 Q. About how many people?

20 A. Oh, I'd say maybe about 30 people

21 total.

22 Q. What was the limit on these games, if

23 you know?

24 A. I don't recall. It was a good size.


1 It was a good size game. I believe it was about

2 five -- either 250 or 500, something like that,

3 which at the time was a relatively good size

4 game.

5 Q. Did you see Larry Pusiteri there when

6 you went there the first time?

7 A. As soon as I walked in. He saw me and

8 came running over and greeted me.

9 Q. Did you see him on every occasion that

10 you went?

11 A. Every time I was there, he was there,

12 yes, sir.

13 Q. What was he doing?

14 A. He was basically, you know, overseeing

15 the game. He was basically in charge of the guys

16 that were handling the bets and he was looking

17 over their shoulder and he was basically running

18 things there. He was acting like a pit boss.

19 Q. How about Richie Catazone, did you

20 ever see him in there?

21 A. Oh, yeah, Richie would be in there on

22 occasion just like sitting around. There were

23 people playing, but there were always other

24 people just like standing around.


1 Q. Did you ever talk to Larry Pusiteri

2 about who held an ownership interest in this

3 game?

4 A. Well, he indicated it was Angelo's

5 game. It -- initially when I talked to him, he

6 told me it was Angelo's game, when I went there

7 on a couple --

8 Q. This Angelo who?

9 A. LaPietra. I never saw Angelo there at

10 the game, but he indicated it was his game.

11 These were during earlier conversations. When we

12 went there, there were a couple of occasions

13 where I saw a couple of Carusos who were there.

14 MR. CARMELL: I am sorry. Saw some of

15 the --

16 THE WITNESS: A couple of the Carusos I did

17 see were there during some of my visits. I

18 didn't see -- I never saw the -- what I thought

19 was the older one there.


21 Q. You are just pointing to 6E?

22 A. 6E, right. I never saw him there at

23 the game, but I did see the other two on

24 occasions that I would go there.


1 MR. CARMELL: 6E is Bruno Caruso,

2 Mr. Bostwick?

3 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.

4 MR. CARMELL: Thank you.


6 A. I never noticed him at the game. I

7 don't recall seeing him there. I do recall

8 seeing Toots because this was after the period of

9 time when I had known him pretty well at that

10 time. He was there, this other Caruso who I

11 thought it was his brother, I would see him there

12 on a few occasions.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's that you are

14 referring to as the other?


16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who do you know him

17 as?

18 THE WITNESS: I always thought all three of

19 them were brothers. I knew him as one of the

20 Carusos.


22 Q. Did you understand from your

23 discussions with Larry Pusiteri and Richie

24 Catazone that any of these individuals owned an


1 ownership interest in this game?

2 A. He indicated it was their game when I

3 was there.

4 Q. Who did?

5 A. Larry did.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Larry said what?

7 THE WITNESS: He indicated to me that it was

8 their game.


10 THE WITNESS: The Carusos. On a couple of

11 occasions I saw both of them at different times

12 in there and Larry -- in fact, Larry introduced

13 me to them just to say hi. I walked up and said

14 hi to them on different occasions also, and Larry

15 would tell me, he indicated it was their game.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is it that you saw

17 there, you walked up and said hi?

18 THE WITNESS: This one who I had met on many

19 occasions before.



22 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's Tootsy.


24 A. Tootsy. Now, the other one, 6G,


1 again, he introduced me to him. I said hello to

2 him, but I can't recall having any conversations

3 at all with him other than hi. I had seen him

4 before in the neighborhood. I am sure he knew

5 who I was. I am sure most of the people there

6 knew who I was. I represented some different

7 people from the game. I saw a lot of my clients

8 at the game and other people I knew from the

9 neighborhood.

10 MR. CARMELL: That's Leo Caruso he was

11 talking about.


13 MR. CARMELL: We have to get a name to a

14 number as we go along.


16 Q. Now, Mr. Cooley, was it clear from

17 your discussions with Larry -- first of all,

18 let's just talk about Larry Pusiteri.

19 From Larry Pusiteri's discussions, was

20 it clear to you that these two individuals were

21 in charge of some ownership interest of this

22 gambling operation?

23 A. He made it very clear to me that they

24 had an interest in the operation. They were not


1 playing. They were just standing around watching

2 and he made it clear that they had an interest in

3 it, yes, sir.

4 Q. Now, when you say an interest, do you

5 mean an ownership interest?

6 A. An ownership interest, yes, sir. Or

7 they get a piece of the pie. I didn't ask them

8 to be specific.

9 Q. Do you know how much -- did you

10 discuss with Mr. Catazone, Richie Catazone the

11 ownership interests of that game?

12 A. Richie would be there. Richie

13 wouldn't play either. Richie was not playing in

14 the game. He would be there just standing

15 around, hanging around and Richie indicated that

16 he had an interest in it too. It was his game

17 also.

18 Q. Richie also held an ownership

19 interest?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Did he also indicate, he meaning

22 Richie Catazone, that any of the Carusos owned an

23 interest in the game?

24 A. I don't recall if he said that as


1 such. You know, Larry had already mentioned that

2 to me and I don't recall if he specifically

3 indicated that too, but I am sure that he knew

4 that I knew. He knew that I was very close with

5 Larry and I was -- and Richie too. During that

6 time Richie too was one of the people I was

7 betting with. I was betting with one of Richie's

8 offices.

9 Q. Who did you personally witness these

10 individuals in 6G and 6F associating with at this

11 game?

12 A. Well, Richie with Larry, with other

13 people that were there. There were always other

14 people just hanging around. I didn't know who

15 some of them were, but they weren't players.

16 They were in some way involved with these

17 people. I never asked who these other people

18 were.

19 Q. But you definitely recall that they

20 were associating at these games with Larry

21 Pusiteri and Richie Catazone?

22 A. Oh, yes. They would constantly go and

23 have little talks, discuss different things.

24 Some other people that were there were there to


1 loan juice money to the people too when the

2 players lost. Some of the people from that group

3 would actually give them juice loans on the

4 spot.

5 Q. Did you witness juice loans being

6 given on the spot?

7 A. Well, I mean, the guy would be broke

8 and I would see him walk over and say to Larry, I

9 need some money. Larry would talk to some of

10 these other people and they would give him money.

11 Q. Did you see Larry Pusiteri interacting

12 with the individual in 6G or the individual in 6F

13 in the coordination of these juice loans?

14 A. I really can't say that I did on those

15 particular loans. They were there. I saw them

16 there. I don't recall. I really can't

17 specifically recall whether he talked to these

18 two people during that time. He went and talked

19 to some people that were there at the game,

20 overseeing the game. I don't really recall if it

21 was these two people or not.

22 Q. Do you have a specific recollection of

23 them -- of the individuals in 6G and 6F talking

24 with Larry Pusiteri and Richie Catazone?


1 A. Oh, yes, sir.

2 Q. During these games?

3 A. During the games, yes, sir.

4 Q. Did Mr. Pusiteri ever tell you how

5 much money was being made in this gambling game?

6 A. He indicated they were making 10,000 a

7 night on a lot of nights, but, again, it was a

8 game that -- it was a game that they risked

9 losing at times. He complained sometimes when

10 they had bad weeks. So it wasn't like the Greek

11 game where the Greek -- in the Greek game that

12 they had in a couple of areas, the house just

13 pulled constantly from the pot. In this

14 particular game it was a game where they won and

15 they lost, but he indicated they were making very

16 good money on the whole there.

17 Q. Did he indicate to you how much money

18 in total was being made?

19 A. A lot of times he would talk about

20 they made 10,000, 15,000, other times he would

21 complain that they lost big money, some people

22 got hot and they wound up losing.

23 Q. Did you ever try to borrow any money

24 from Larry Pusiteri?


1 A. There was one time when I asked Larry

2 to -- I needed some quick cash to take care of

3 some of my gambling bills.

4 Q. Approximately when was this?

5 A. It was in '80, in 1980, in early

6 1980.

7 Q. What was the purpose of needing this

8 money?

9 A. Well, I was playing with a whole

10 series of bookmakers and this particular time I

11 was going to be short to pay a couple of the

12 people. A lot of times I would maybe be winning

13 10, 20, 30,000 from some and owe that much to

14 others and if I couldn't pay, I couldn't play

15 that week and I like to keep playing and I

16 attempted to -- there were a few times when I

17 would get juice loans from Marco, but one time I

18 happened to be out there and I asked Larry who I

19 was with. I asked Larry, I was there in the red

20 with one of them. I said, listen, I needed like

21 20,000 is all and I asked if I could get it and

22 what it would cost for a week, and he indicated

23 that he would have to find out. He would check

24 and he would have to find out.


1 Q. Did he indicate who he would have to

2 find out from?

3 A. In the first conversation, I don't

4 recall if he did or didn't, but when I did talk

5 to him, it was later that day, it was the next

6 day when I said -- he said I can give it to you,

7 but I think it was going to cost me five percent

8 a week and I said that's kind of high and he

9 indicated that's what Caruso said.

10 Q. Did he indicate which Caruso?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you understand -- did you have an

13 understanding of who he meant?

14 MR. CARMELL: Objection.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: If he doesn't know --

16 I mean, I see where you are going. You had a

17 conversation with him?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Your conversation --

20 he said it is five percent?

21 THE WITNESS: And I said that's high.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: He used the word

23 that's what Caruso said?

24 THE WITNESS: He indicated words to the


1 effect that I have no choice, that's what --

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Carmell has

3 objected as to -- your question was --


5 Q. Did you have an understanding of who

6 he meant?

7 MR. CARMELL: Besides this Caruso, there may

8 be hundreds of others. I am not interested with

9 due respect to this witness what his

10 understanding was. It is what was said.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: I am going to ask him what

12 his basis for his understanding is. He may be

13 wrong or he may be right.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may ask him to --

15 do you know who he was referring to?

16 THE WITNESS: Which one in particular, no,

17 sir, I don't know.


19 Q. Was it clear to you that he was

20 referring to one of these three individuals?

21 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'll sustain that

23 objection. Do you know who he was referring to,

24 any individual?


1 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I don't.


3 Q. Let's talk for a minute about the

4 Redwood Inn. Can you describe that

5 establishment?

6 A. It was an old bar. It was I believe

7 on about 32nd Street, 31st or 32nd Street and I

8 think Wallace, one of those streets. I hung out

9 there for probably three, four, five years.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where is that; Elmwood

11 Park?

12 THE WITNESS: No, sir. That was in the

13 Chinatown area. In the mayor's neighborhood over

14 there.


16 Q. Approximately how far from this dice

17 game and the Hungry Hound that you were just

18 referring to is that establishment?

19 A. About six, seven blocks. That was

20 part of their neighborhood. This was the

21 neighborhood over there.

22 Q. How much time did you spend at the

23 Redwood Inn?

24 A. I was there a lot for a long period of


1 time. I would be there two or three days a

2 week. I would go there when I'd leave Rush

3 Street, when I would go to these places,

4 sometimes with a girlfriend or with a couple

5 other friends because it was just a fun place to

6 hang.

7 Q. Did you meet -- ever meet Dirge over

8 at this location?

9 A. Just about every night. Dirge was

10 there just about every night and his brother was

11 there just about every night of the week.

12 Q. What was his brother's name?

13 A. I called him Cigars. I believe it was

14 Frank, but I always called him Cigars because he

15 always had a cigar in his mouth.

16 Q. How about Richie Catazone, did you

17 ever meet him?

18 A. Yeah, on occasion. They wouldn't

19 always be there. Richie would be there

20 sometimes. Larry would be there sometimes.

21 Q. Larry Pusiteri?

22 A. Yes, they wouldn't be there all the

23 time. They would once in a while come there.

24 Q. I think you briefly discussed this


1 before, but what was your understanding of

2 Dirge's relationship, if any, to Angelo LaPietra?

3 A. I was under the impression that he was

4 married to his daughter.

5 Q. And how did you get that impression?

6 A. Again, he told me -- I'm pretty sure

7 he told me. Others would mention that. His

8 brother I believe told me that.

9 Q. Did you ever discuss Frank, Bruno or

10 Leo Caruso, any of these Carusos, with Dirge?

11 MR. CARMELL: Well, I'm going to object.

12 That already leads us to the names. We had the

13 word Caruso before. If he wants to state did he

14 have any conversations regarding a Caruso and

15 then go from there.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's fair.

17 MR. BOSTWICK: That's fair.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Did there come a time

19 you had conversations with a Caruso. I mean --

20 MR. BOSTWICK: About --



23 Q. About a Caruso with Dirge.

24 A. Oh, I mean, there were a series of


1 times.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: At this point you

3 don't know Dirge's name.

4 THE WITNESS: Dirge. Dirge's name is

5 Dirge. Imperato. Imperato. The Dirge. Dirge

6 Imperato is the name.


8 Q. Can you spell the last name? Give us

9 an approximate.

10 A. I'd be guessing. I-M-P-A-R-A-T-O or

11 something like that.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So you had a

13 conversation with Dirge.

14 THE WITNESS: Again, I believe that's his

15 last name. But it was -- I always just for years

16 knew him as Dirge. I believe he was -- I believe

17 for the first time I was told his last name

18 when -- after I -- after I -- I had certain

19 conversations with him and I wore a wire against

20 him. I wore a wire in some of my conversations

21 with him.


23 Q. And that's how you learned his last

24 name?


1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is through the course of the

3 investigation that you were involved in?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Did you have any discussions with

6 Dirge Imperato about any of the -- any Caruso,

7 any individual named Caruso?

8 A. Other a period of years, yeah, and we

9 would see -- I would see some of them sometimes

10 driving by with Angelo through the neighborhood.

11 I mean --

12 Q. See some of who?

13 A. There were a couple of them I would

14 see. These two I always thought were the older

15 ones. I would see them on occasion.


17 particularize who you are talking about. Give us

18 a number of the picture anyway.

19 THE WITNESS: Okay. The one here 6-E,

20 picture 6-E.

21 MR. BOSTWICK: Which would be Bruno for the

22 reference.




1 A. There were occasions on 6-G.

2 Q. Who is that?


4 MR. BOSTWICK: Should be Leo.



7 Q. You were describing --

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: And your observations,

9 what did you see.


11 A. Yes, sir. If I can indicate the

12 circumstances.

13 At the Redwood a lot of times we would

14 sit -- we'd sit out there outside the Redwood and

15 Nick a lot of times would have a barbecue. He'd

16 barbecue a pig or barbecue ribs or barbecue other

17 things out there.

18 We would sit there sometimes during

19 the day, sometimes on weekends, sometimes during

20 the week. We would just sit out there in front.

21 It was a very interesting neighborhood out

22 there.

23 While we'd be sitting there you would

24 have different people that were interconnected


1 with these people driving back and forth.

2 During that time, there was a long

3 period of time before Angelo went to prison --



6 A. Angelo LaPietra. When you'd see him

7 driving through the neighborhood. For whatever

8 reason, he liked to drive through the

9 neighborhood.

10 There were different times you'd see

11 different people in the car with him. He would

12 drive right in front of the -- right by the

13 Redwood.

14 At different times you would --

15 sometimes you'd see him by himself. Usually

16 there were other people, there were other people

17 with him. There wouldn't be sometimes. There

18 would be two cars and there would be his car and

19 a follow car. It was like he was surveying his

20 fiefdom. That was the way the neighborhood was.

21 So, there were times we would see him

22 drive by. There were times I would see him drive

23 by with what I thought were the Caruso brothers.

24 Other times there were other people in the car.


1 Sometimes there would be a lot of people in the

2 car.

3 Q. You specifically remember instances

4 where you saw Angelo LaPietra driving with the

5 individual in 6-E, Bruno Caruso?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And you specifically recall instances

8 when you saw Angelo LaPietra driving --

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think it's Angelo

10 LaPietra, if that is who you are talking about.

11 THE WITNESS: That probably is it.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Angelo LaPietra.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: LaPietra.


15 Q. You saw him -- you specifically -- let

16 me start that over.

17 There were -- you specifically recall

18 situations where you personally observed Angelo

19 LaPietra driving with the individual in 6-G, Leo

20 Caruso?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. How about 6-F?

23 A. No. I cannot specifically ever

24 remember him in the car driving by. I just


1 don't.

2 Q. Did you have conversations with Dirge

3 Imperato on any occasions about any these

4 individuals?

5 A. A lot of times they would go by or

6 drive by, something would be said, a comment

7 would be said of different sorts. But I mean

8 nothing ever derogatory about -- about these

9 people or about Angelo.

10 Q. How were these individuals treated

11 from your observation?

12 MR. CARMELL: Which individuals?


14 Q. The individuals in 6-G and 6-E, Leo

15 Caruso or Bruno Caruso.

16 MR. CARMELL: Are you finished with the

17 question? That question -- under what

18 circumstances?

19 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me lay a little more

20 foundation.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: I am trying to

22 picture. Who is treating where.

23 MR. CARMELL: And how and when.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is happening.



2 Q. From your discussions with -- with

3 Dirge, did you get an understanding of what

4 Dirge's opinion of these individuals was?

5 A. Well, when you say his opinion, these

6 people obviously -- I mean based upon my

7 conversations and specific conversations, these

8 people were above him in the hierarchy.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: What did Dirge tell

10 you about 6-E, the gentleman you know as Bruno?

11 Did you ever have any conversations with Dirge

12 about him?

13 THE WITNESS: These were good people. These

14 were super guys.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is saying this?

16 THE WITNESS: Dirge. These are great guys.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: When you give us, so

18 that the record is clear, when you give us a

19 conversation, he said, I said or the words Dirge

20 said, so forth, so we know that it's someone

21 saying something.

22 THE WITNESS: Again, I cannot recall any one

23 specific conversation or where it took place or

24 exactly when it took place, a specific


1 conversation, but there were over a period of

2 like maybe ten years there were dozens and dozens

3 of conversations about certain people and about

4 some of these individuals at different times.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, when you talk

6 about -- can you particularize on a subject? If

7 you are talking about, would you particularize

8 it? Dirge said to me many times about Bruno X.

9 THE WITNESS: Again, I cannot even do that.

10 I cannot even be specific about how many times he

11 said something about this one. Never -- I don't

12 recall ever, in any of my conversations him

13 specifically unless somebody -- unless one of

14 them drove by and I would -- I might make


16 I was always like a jokester. I would

17 always make silly comments. These people

18 wouldn't, but I would because, I mean, to see

19 Angelo, he looked like an ordinary elderly

20 gentleman. He didn't dress fancy. It wasn't

21 like somebody from the Godfather. He looked like

22 a nice guy just wandering down the street is what

23 he looked like, some retiree or whatever.

24 These guys, I would make silly


1 comments about some of them. I knew who they

2 were and what they were. I knew what he was all

3 about.

4 But Dirge again always talked with the

5 utmost respect about him, about his brother,

6 about the Carusos, about Richie, about a few of

7 the others. Always talked in the best -- in the

8 best light about them.

9 If you are looking for an example,

10 after I started working for the Government, I was

11 in -- I was in -- I was in the Redwood one night

12 and I'm talking with -- I'm talking with Dirge

13 and Dirge indicated to me or somebody had just

14 gotten killed. One of their guys had just gotten

15 killed a short time before. They killed him

16 going into a bingo parlor or something and I had

17 heard from somebody else that they set him up to

18 be killed.

19 He thought he was going out to whack

20 somebody and he wound up being the whackee rather

21 than the whackor. They gave him a gun I was told

22 where they cut off the firing pin. Suddenly they

23 broke the news to him he was going to be a

24 target. They chased him into the bingo hall and


1 killed him.

2 I knew for a fact he was one of the

3 26th Street crew.

4 Q. Was that John Figurata?

5 A. That was him, right. I had said to

6 Dirge -- I wasn't wiring a wire because they

7 weren't -- they weren't my targets on that

8 particular occasion. I was working on some other

9 case with other people.

10 And I said to him it looks like your

11 guys are losing their -- like you guys are losing

12 their power, because I am pretty sure at that

13 time I think Angelo wasn't around. Either he was

14 gone already or he was in serious trouble and was

15 about to go for a period of time.

16 And I made the comment, I said, looks

17 like you guys are in trouble, looks like you guys

18 are out of the box now that your boss is out of

19 commission, because I knew Hook was a very, very

20 powerful sort.


22 Q. Who is Hook?

23 A. Angelo. They always -- other people

24 always referred to him as the Hook. And I


1 said -- and he said what are you talking about?

2 He said he wouldn't have gotten it without our

3 okay and he said to me, he said, before -- in

4 fact, Angelo must have been gone.

5 Before Angelo left he said he called a

6 meeting. He said he called a big meeting and he

7 made it clear his brother was going to be in

8 charge, his brother was taking his place and he

9 said and we're going -- and what do you call it

10 was there, either Infelice was there or had a

11 representative there.

12 He indicated he'd be in charge along

13 with Infelice who was at that time supposedly one

14 of the top bosses in the city.

15 And after he told me this, I thought

16 this might be of some help to -- I knew they were

17 investigating. I knew the FBI was investigating

18 the whole Chinatown group because I had been -- I

19 had been talking earlier to a couple of agents

20 that were working that particular case and I

21 called my agent and I said, look, I told him what

22 had happened, what the conversation was.

23 He said would you wear a wire and go

24 back and talk to them the next day. I said yeah,


1 I'll put a wire on. I'll put a wire on and I put

2 a wire on.

3 I went back to talk to Dirge the next

4 day and when I went to talk to him, he hadn't

5 been drinking as much as he was the night before

6 and when I went to talk to him and I started to

7 try to bring up the entire conversation. He

8 seemed to get kind of edgy about it and I began

9 to, too, because, you know, number one, I would

10 never in the past discuss illegal things or

11 something like this on two occasions.

12 And again -- but there was part of the

13 conversation it was recorded where I mentioned to

14 him things about, well, it looks like, you know,

15 you guys are still in charge or whatever and no

16 kidding, I said Infelice is still partners now

17 with Angelo's brother and so forth.

18 But I got a little nervous about

19 talking about the specific killing at that time

20 because Dirge seemed to get somewhat nervous.

21 Again, that conversation was recorded.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Back on course.


24 Q. With respect specifically to your


1 conversations with Dirge at the Redwood Inn and

2 in other locations, did you gain an understanding

3 of whether or not the individual in 6-E was

4 associated with organized crime?

5 MR. CARMELL: Objection. Again, he has

6 asked him for conclusions of conversations, from

7 conversations. The only way we can do this is

8 what conversations mention Bruno Caruso, who I

9 think is the one you were pointing to.

10 MR. BOSTWICK: That is not my understanding

11 of the way evidence can be presented.

12 Without detailing specifically every

13 indication and every conversation, I understand

14 that I am able to ask him over a course of period

15 of years he's laid a foundation that he has

16 discussed these individuals with these people.

17 He saw them from personal

18 observations, and I can certainly ask him what

19 his understanding was as a result of those

20 conversations without particularizing every

21 single conversation or any conversation.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: You can do that. It

23 goes to the weight. If he can't give you any

24 specifics, it becomes a very, very general


1 observation.

2 MR. BOSTWICK: Exactly.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may ask him, lay

4 your foundation, whatever your foundation is and

5 based upon that did you come to -- what was the

6 subject matter and what was the conclusion you

7 drew.

8 It would be nice if you can

9 particularize it more. If you can't, it goes to

10 the weight of just how -- what that

11 conversation -- what those conversations are.

12 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me do this. This is

13 probably a good time to break and we can come

14 back and talk about some further

15 particularizations and some further foundation.


17 MR. BOSTWICK: Ask him the same questions.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: For example, I talked

19 to Jones who was a garbage collector out in the

20 area Silver Lake for 20 years.

21 MR. CARMELL: With all due respect, I think

22 with the witness here --

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think you're right

24 about that. About to make some evidentiary


1 philosophical discussion.

2 MR. CARMELL: Correct.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: And even though he is

4 a lawyer, we will exclude him while we talk about

5 our great evidentiary concepts.

6 MR. CARMELL: Yes, correct. I understand

7 Mr. Bostwick is going to have a break now and

8 then we will pursue the subject after lunch.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's correct, sir.

10 We will come back, it's now 12:30, about 1:30, 20

11 to 2:00?

12 MR. CARMELL: That will be perfect.

13 Can we go off the record?

14 (WHEREUPON, discussion was had

15 off the record.)

16 (WHEREUPON, at 12:30 p.m. the

17 hearing was recessed until

18 1:30 p.m., this date, July 21, 1997.)












5 IN RE: )





10 July 21, 1997

11 1:50 p.m.



14 The hearing resumed pursuant to recess

15 at the FBI, 219 South Dearborn Street, Chicago,

16 Illinois.



19 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.









3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,

4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:



7 appeared on behalf of the GEB

8 Attorney;


10 LTD.,

11 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,

12 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:


14 appeared on behalf of the Chicago

15 District Council of Laborers.






21 Federal Bureau of Investigation.





1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, we are back

2 on the record. As we left, you were continuing

3 to question the witness.


5 called as a witness herein, having been

6 previously duly sworn and having testified, was

7 examined and testified further as follows:



10 Q. Mr. Cooley, as we left, we were

11 discussing a number of occasions over an extended

12 period of time where you spent time in the 26th

13 Street area.

14 Can you describe that area and its

15 uniqueness to the Hearing Officer?

16 A. Yes, sir. It was a very, very close

17 knit community. There were a lot of -- a lot of

18 politicians or politically connected people that

19 lived there. The mayor, in fact, lived very

20 close to there, grew up in that same

21 neighborhood. A lot of police lived and worked

22 in the area. A lot of mob guys, a lot of the

23 organized crime people lived and worked right in

24 that community.


1 That was an area as you drove down the

2 street, if you didn't belong, if you were not

3 known, if you did not either live there or were

4 very, very close to the people that lived there,

5 you just had an unbelievable sense about you as

6 you even drove into the neighborhood. There were

7 eyes always on you.

8 In that neighborhood, you had a series

9 of these organized crime people that were

10 constantly driving back and forth, up and down

11 the streets. They were always around, both, you

12 know, day and night. The people seemed to love

13 these people. I mean, most of the people that

14 lived there. There were a lot of honest, legit

15 people that lived there too, but they seemed to

16 look up to these people. These people were like

17 their heroes. For whatever reason they just

18 basically looked up to these people.

19 They were very well connected

20 politically in the city, they were obviously part

21 of the First Ward which was one of the most

22 powerful organizations probably ever in terms of

23 the control they had. They were very tight with

24 Fred Roti and with some others from the First


1 Ward. It was just like a neighborhood hard to

2 explain other than maybe Taylor Street before

3 Butch and Harry -- before Butchie got killed and

4 Harry went to prison. Taylor Street was very

5 similar to it.

6 Q. This is Butchie Petrocelli and Harry

7 Aleman?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. As -- in terms of this area, the

10 people that you knew and hung out with such as

11 the bartenders and other individuals associated

12 with organized crime, did they attach an

13 importance to understanding who was who and the

14 positions in the Outfit?

15 A. Absolutely.

16 Q. Why did they attach an importance to

17 that?

18 A. That was just again part of the

19 world. In this particular community, I mean,

20 certain people were looked at in a certain way

21 and the top bad guys were looked at with

22 respect. The top political people were looked at

23 with respect.

24 Even people like Alderman Roti who was


1 as corrupt as they get was looked at with total

2 respect because of the power that they wielded.

3 Q. Was there is a danger to individuals

4 in not understanding who was powerful in that

5 community and who was not in the organized crime

6 area?

7 A. Oh, absolutely. They had a

8 reputation, too, in this area as being

9 particularly brutal. Well, Hook, LaPietra, was

10 the person in charge of that particular group and

11 in the circles I ran in, he was a feared person,

12 absolutely totally feared individual.

13 Q. Was it important for you in your

14 business to understand who was in the hierarchy

15 of the 26th Street crew?

16 A. Well, for a lot of reasons, certainly.

17 Q. What are some of the reasons?

18 A. Again, I made a lot of money off some

19 of these people. I got a lot of business off

20 some of these people.

21 Again, if certain people get angry at

22 you for -- and, myself, I was always a jokester.

23 I was quite often saying silly things or even

24 making fun of certain people for almost no


1 reason. That was just my nature to be

2 happy-go-lucky.

3 Over a period of time, over the years,

4 I had gotten some of these mob guys pretty upset

5 with me without realizing who they were, how

6 important they were.

7 So it became very important as I got

8 older and spent more time around these people to

9 realize who you can toy around with and who you

10 can't.

11 Q. Was it important for your legal

12 business to understand the structure and the

13 individuals who were in the 26th Street crew?

14 A. Probably more important for my own

15 personal safety because these people had no sense

16 of humor, some of them.

17 Q. From your extended time that you spent

18 in the neighborhood and discussing individuals in

19 organized crime with people like Dirge Imperato,

20 Richie Catazone, Larry Pusiteri and others, did

21 you have an understanding of the structure of and

22 hierarchy of the 26th Street crew?

23 A. I think I did, yes, sir.

24 Q. Can you describe that for us?


1 A. Well, again, Angelo LaPietra was the

2 ultimate boss. His son -- not his son. I guess,

3 yes, it was his son or his brother. I'm sorry.

4 His brother. His brother was somewhere up there

5 in the higher echelon. The Carusos were up there

6 somewhere in the higher echelon and you had

7 Jimmy -- I believe Jimmy Laporto or something

8 like that. He was up there in the higher

9 echelon.

10 Q. How about Richie Catazone?

11 A. Richie again too. Richie, there is no

12 question, you know, he was. Again, he didn't

13 look it or carry himself like the others did

14 around the area, but the people for whatever

15 reason always treated him again with respect in a

16 certain way.

17 Q. Now, when you say the Carusos, you are

18 looking at three photographs, 6-G, 6-F and 6-E.

19 Where -- anyone, as Mr. Carmell has stated, could

20 open up a telephone book and see a number of

21 Carusos.

22 Did you understand that these

23 individuals were the individuals who were in the

24 top echelon of the 26th Street crew?


1 A. During a period of years I belonged to

2 the social club. At a certain point I was asked

3 to join the Italian-American social club over

4 there at 26th Street. I belonged to it for about

5 a year or two. I made my contribution, paid my

6 money and I started going once in a while back

7 and forth into the clubs themselves.

8 There they used to have a big party

9 there on the 4th of July for a while. Angelo

10 threw a big street party, a huge street party

11 right behind the Hungry Hound. I would see these

12 three in particular.

13 I would see other individuals that I

14 felt were in some way involved in the hierarchy

15 of organized crime in that particular group.

16 You would see them meeting in a

17 certain way. You would see them like holding

18 court in their own little section. You would see

19 when people walk into the room, they would walk

20 over, say hello to them first and walk away, et

21 cetera. It's just the way the world was handled

22 over there.

23 I could see and any person could see

24 and observe that they were somebody based upon


1 the way people treated them.

2 Q. When you say they were somebody,

3 somebody in the structure of organized crime?

4 A. Yes, sir, that's what I am talking

5 about.

6 Q. Let's take one of these individuals

7 one at a time. Either social club or the

8 Italian-American club or this 4th of July party,

9 No. 6-E, who would you see him associating with?

10 A. Angelo.

11 Q. Angelo LaPietra?

12 A. Yes, sir. I would see him with -- I

13 would see him with Richie. I would see him with

14 Larry.

15 Q. Richie Catazone?

16 A. Yes. I would see him with Larry.

17 Q. Larry Pusiteri?

18 A. Yes, sir. With again what I thought

19 were two brothers. One is his brother and one is

20 associated with him in some way.

21 There were other people you would see

22 around there, old-timers. I never to this day

23 knew who they were. I would see them. They were

24 from other areas that would come for certain


1 functions. They were organized crime.


3 MR. BOSTWICK: Bruno Caruso.



6 Q. Okay. Did you have any doubt in your

7 mind over this period of time that the individual

8 in 6-E, Bruno Caruso, was associated with the

9 26th Street crew?

10 A. Not at all, sir, no, sir. Again, to

11 be clear, I have never talked to the man except

12 to say hi. I have never talked to him. Never

13 discussed anything with him, you know. I would

14 see him. I would say hi like the rest. I would

15 walk by like the rest and I would walk away. I

16 never socialized with the two. I would socialize

17 with what I thought was the younger of the two.

18 Q. 6-F, Frank Caruso, Tootsie?

19 A. In the nightclub scene. When I would

20 see him at 26th Street, in those settings, I

21 would say hi and walked away. I never joined up

22 with the group. I just never did.

23 Q. In your experience and your dealings

24 with Chicago Outfit members and associates, would


1 you think there is any way that an individual

2 such as the individual in 6-E could have the type

3 of private audiences with Angelo LaPietra and not

4 be involved in organized crime?

5 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object. He is

6 stretching for answers from this witness who has

7 given his statements of what he knew and what he

8 saw. Now he is asking what he thinks from that

9 and the witness has testified. He's called it

10 the private audiences and --

11 MR. BOSTWICK: Mr. Carmell, if the issue

12 wasn't association with mob figures, then I might

13 agree with you. If --

14 MR. CARMELL: The issue is July 4 huge

15 street party and he said where the person was.

16 He has characterized this as private audiences.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, you have gone so

18 far. You have said that he met with them. Your

19 near question, Mr. Bostwick, is in your opinion

20 could you have met with --

21 MR. BOSTWICK: And experience.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: And experience. Could

23 you have met with Angelo LaPietra.

24 MR. BOSTWICK: Under these circumstances.



2 circumstances if you were not an associate.

3 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, you got to lay

5 more of a foundation on that. You got to say

6 what is Angelo LaPietra? What is his -- what

7 does he do? What sort of character? What sort

8 of operation does he do? What sort of mannerisms

9 does he have?

10 It's kind of difficult, do you think

11 he would just meet with him.


13 Q. Let's back up and talk about the

14 Italian-American club and these parties in a

15 little more detail.

16 What is the Italian-American club in

17 the 26th Street area?

18 A. The Italian-American club is a group

19 of mostly -- probably a vast majority of

20 Italian-Americans that form a social organization

21 and in this particular case in their case same as

22 Marco had back in Elmwood Park.

23 A vast majority of them, a majority of

24 them that I knew, that I personally knew that


1 were in there were inter-involved with organized

2 crime people. We were gamblers. The ones that

3 weren't were gamblers or fringe.

4 Again, they also had legitimate

5 people. I knew doctors. I knew one other

6 attorney. I knew some other probably -- probably

7 legitimate people because I appeared to be

8 legitimate on the surface but I was certainly

9 involved with all these people in other ways.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: What are you saying?

11 How big is the membership?

12 THE WITNESS: There were probably about 3,

13 400 people. Again, I am guessing when I say that

14 because I mean this is what I was told. Probably

15 never see more than about 40 or 50 at a time in

16 the club.

17 But, again, when they had that 4th of

18 July party, you had to buy tickets to go to it.

19 There were hundreds of people there.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: You had 3 or 400

21 members.


23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Maybe 50 that you

24 would see active around there. Now, your


1 statement is majority of these persons are

2 involved in organized crime in some fashion.

3 THE WITNESS: No, majority of those that I

4 knew personally. I mean the people that I knew

5 personally were inter-involved in organized crime

6 activities or were like their bookmakers or were

7 working their offices or were gamblers like

8 myself that were, let's say, fringe people.

9 There were a lot of others there that

10 I don't know if they were legitimate or not. But

11 the ones that I knew personally, there were a lot

12 of people I never knew their names. I just knew

13 them to see them on a given occasion when I would

14 be there. I had no idea who they were or what

15 they were.

16 Q. Now, you joined this club at a certain

17 point in time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Approximately when?

20 A. In about 1977, '78, right around

21 there. Not long after I handled Harry's case.

22 Q. Harry Aleman, the murder case?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. How is it that you became a member?


1 A. Nicky mentioned to me that, you know,

2 he wanted to know if I wanted to join. And,

3 again, I didn't care either way. If you joined,

4 that means you had to pay him some money and buy

5 all of their tickets. They actually pushed the

6 tickets on all of the members.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Nicky, who is that?

8 THE WITNESS: My friend that owned the

9 Redwood.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is his last name?

11 THE WITNESS: I knew it. I can't think of

12 it now. It has been ten years.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Nicky, owner of

14 the Redwood?

15 THE WITNESS: Right.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sponsored you or what?

17 THE WITNESS: Well, he just said -- I was

18 asked -- he asked you if you wanted to join. As

19 I say, when Nicky was there in the place at that

20 particular time, Dirge was sitting right there,

21 Cigars was right there with him, there were a few

22 other people right there and I just said sure.

23 It is only going to cost me -- I think it cost a

24 hundred bucks or something to join at that time


1 and I felt it is good for my business to do it

2 and I said sure and I did.


4 Q. Who else did you know was a member of

5 that club?

6 A. Everybody from -- everybody that I

7 knew from the Chinatown area belonged, all of the

8 bookmakers that I represented that I knew, the

9 people that I hung with, all of the guys that

10 hung in that one particular group from the Rush

11 Street area. It was Angelo was more or less the

12 head of the club too. It was Angelo's club.

13 Q. Angelo LaPietra?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Was Dirge Imperato a member?

16 A. Oh, yes, sir. Everybody that I knew

17 in that neighborhood that I hung with belonged to

18 it. The rest were all Italians. I was the only

19 non-Italian in that group. Everybody that I hung

20 around with was Italian except myself.

21 Q. Describe -- obviously -- well, let me

22 go back. Were the Carusos, Bruno, Leo or Frank,

23 members of that club?

24 A. Well, I saw them there at the club at


1 different occasions again. I assumed that they

2 belonged. I don't know what their names were on

3 the scrolls, but they certainly were there.

4 Q. Did you see any of these individuals

5 with Angelo LaPietra in the club, for example?

6 A. I didn't see him there that much.

7 Q. Who is that?

8 A. I only actually went to the club

9 probably maybe 10 times, if that, during that

10 period because a lot of times they played cards

11 during the day. I didn't get involved in the

12 card games. I walked in there, said hi to a few

13 people and would wander back over to the

14 Redwood. I saw them there -- on a couple of

15 occasions I did see them in there. When I saw

16 these people in there on different occasions,

17 different ones may or may not be around. It is

18 hard to explain unless you are there and you see

19 it. They would have their own little corner

20 where they would be.

21 Q. When you say they, who would they be?

22 A. If Angelo was there, if certain others

23 what I considered to be the hierarchy were there,

24 they had their own little section. They always


1 sat in their own little corner. The other people

2 were spread all around the place. Certain times

3 certain ones would come over, sit down and talk

4 to them, other times they would get up and walk

5 over to another corner and have like a private

6 discussion with a person here or there, but,

7 again, it was like a very informal yet very

8 formal situation.

9 Q. Is that similar to the situation that

10 was present when you would go out drinking to

11 Ditka's and Faces and these places that you have

12 described, people would be off in a corner alone?

13 A. Well, as I say, when we went to like

14 Faces and -- like with Faces in particular, we

15 had one corner of the bar -- where I say we, for

16 a period of time I spent a lot of time with the

17 same group and that was the fun corner to be

18 because the cutest girls would be there. They

19 all liked to come around and be in the activity.

20 Again, it was free. When I stood there and drank

21 with them, it was free. If I stood there and

22 friends of mine came over, if somebody was with

23 me they more or less would be allowed to stand

24 there. If a stranger would come over and even


1 stand around, it was a situation where you had to

2 see to understand, they would make the person

3 feel very uncomfortable. It would get very

4 quiet. Everybody would stare at the person until

5 the person would walk away and leave us, and that

6 was our corner. As I said, Richie, Richie was

7 there almost every time I was there.

8 Q. Richie Catazone?

9 A. Yeah, Richie Catazone, and wherever he

10 was sitting, whether it be the first, second,

11 third, fourth, fifth chair in the group of chairs

12 that we had by the bar, I mean, everybody like

13 paid him special attention consistently all of

14 the time.

15 Q. Was that attention something that you

16 saw given to any of these individuals in 6E, 6F

17 or 6G?

18 A. The only one I recall seeing there

19 over a period of time was the youngest one. The

20 other two may or may not have been there on

21 occasion, but I really can't remember either one

22 of them being there. They don't stand out as

23 being there.

24 Q. How about other environments like the


1 gambling establishment and the Redwood Inn and

2 the Italian American Club?

3 A. Again, whenever you saw some of these

4 people, you saw them, you know, in their own

5 little group, in their own little sector amongst

6 the other bigger group. Even though at the --

7 like at the dice game or other places there were

8 a lot of people at the dice game, you would see a

9 few people that obviously stood out from the

10 other people.

11 Q. Did you have occasion over a period of

12 years to talk to people like Dirge Imperato and

13 Richie Catazone and others about these

14 individuals and their relative position in the

15 structure of the 26th Street Crew?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to the

18 form of that question. It assumes that they had

19 a position.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: No, it doesn't.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't think it

22 assumes that. If they did, did you have such a

23 conversation or did you have any conversations

24 that allowed you to make an opinion?



2 A. Yes, sir, there were different

3 conversations over a long period of time, over

4 many different subjects, yes, sir.


6 Q. And what opinion did you form?

7 A. That these people, in fact, were in

8 the hierarchy of that particular crew or family,

9 whatever you want to call it.

10 Q. And you are talking about 6E, 6F and

11 6G?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Let me turn now your attention to

14 Counselor's Row. What is Counselor's Row? You

15 have talked about it a little bit off and on.

16 A. Counselor's Row is no more. They

17 closed up a short time after I left town, but

18 Counselor's Row was a restaurant across the

19 street from -- across the street from city hall.

20 The First Ward offices were above Counselor's, my

21 office for a lot of years was above Counselor's.

22 It was a place where a lot of the politicians

23 met, a lot of the city officials met, a lot of

24 the union people would come there and meet, a lot


1 of the mob guys would come there and meet.

2 Pat Marcy basically held court there

3 for many, many, many years. Pat Marcy, Fred

4 Roti, the two of them in particular, we had what

5 they called a First Ward table. It was a table

6 that was put in in the corner of the restaurant

7 and a telephone was put in up there. It

8 basically was a table -- it was reserved, period,

9 for the First Ward and others affiliated with the

10 First Ward.

11 Q. Did you ever sit with them over at

12 that table and discuss business with them?

13 A. For many years. Well, again, I had a

14 lot of discussions at the table and we discussed

15 a lot of legitimate things at the table. I never

16 discussed anything illegal at that table myself.

17 I never did.

18 Q. Why not?

19 A. From the very first when I was -- when

20 I was allowed to sit there or invited to sit

21 there -- you would not sit there unless you were

22 invited. Even if nobody was there, if somebody

23 else from the restaurant came and sat down, they

24 would be chased away. Even if nobody was using


1 it, the table would stay vacant. It was our

2 table. Marcy wanted it that way. He didn't like

3 any strangers over there around the corner.

4 When I first got involved with them,

5 Senior, John D'Arco, Senior was very security

6 conscious and he had told me, you never, ever

7 discuss anything illegal at this table. He said

8 there is no question the Feds are all around and

9 bugs can be anywhere. You never ever discuss

10 anything illegal at this table.

11 Q. Did you discuss illegal activities

12 with Pat Marcy over time, the fixing of cases and

13 the like?

14 A. Many times, yes, sir, yes.

15 Q. What was the procedure when you wanted

16 to do that?

17 A. If I met him someplace else, fine. If

18 ever I was supposed to meet him or if I ever just

19 came in off the street and I would see him at the

20 table, if I would see him sitting there and I

21 would look and make eye contact and I would make

22 a motion of some sort, he realized that we wanted

23 to discuss something illegal. He would get up

24 and go out in the hall or walk in the back of the


1 restaurant or go back into the corner in one of

2 the booths close by the cash register.

3 Q. Is that a procedure that you saw other

4 people employ as well?

5 A. Many times over the years, yes, sir.

6 Q. What -- let me show you this diagram

7 we have marked 168A. Do you recognize that?

8 A. Yes, sir, I do.

9 Q. What is that?

10 A. That's a pretty rough diagram of the

11 Counselor's Row.

12 Q. Is there any inaccuracies or

13 corrections that you would make given the time

14 period -- well, first let me ask you this

15 question. Was the interior of the restaurant

16 different over various periods of time?

17 A. Yes. When I first began going to

18 Counselor's, there was not a basement. After a

19 period of years they opened up a basement which

20 like doubled the amount of seating capacity they

21 had there because the restaurant became very,

22 very popular because of all of the politicians

23 and the others and the hangers on that would come

24 in there. The only difference is you indicate a


1 bar over here in front of where the pay phones

2 would be when you came in. That was actually

3 like a lunch counter rather than a bar.

4 Q. Why don't you write lunch counter on

5 that.

6 A. And it was more circular than this.

7 It didn't go all of the way across here like I

8 remember. It would circle over here and a little

9 opening between here and where the kitchen was.

10 This was like a lunch counter.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: So the witness is

12 writing on this document. What was supposed to

13 be a bar, he is writing the word lunch counter I

14 assume.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.


17 A. Again, here, you didn't have two rows

18 of booths as I remember. He had one section of

19 tables. If it was booths -- yes, I guess it was

20 booths. It was like booths over here alongside

21 it. There was a little more space here between

22 here and where the kitchen -- and where the

23 kitchen area was. There was a little more

24 space. You could barely walk. There was like a


1 little opening over there. Back here --

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: You say that's not

3 drawn to scale?

4 THE WITNESS: This is not drawn to scale.



7 A. Back over here too there was like a

8 wall.


10 Q. You are referring to the section that

11 says booth section over there in the upper

12 left-hand -- your upper left-hand corner of

13 diagram Exhibit 168A, is that right?

14 A. Yes, sir. Well, actually if we are

15 talking about in terms of actually how this was,

16 this would be the west wall and the west wall of

17 the restaurant back on the southwest corner you

18 had a section here that would usually only be

19 open for lunchtime and there would be a series of

20 tables and there would be a couple of booths

21 right next to it, but there was also a wall where

22 you could not see. From the front of the

23 restaurant you could not see to the back. There

24 was a wall there that would block your view.


1 We did -- a lot of our illegal

2 activities we did back here. Whenever Pat would

3 meet some of the known mob guys, especially some

4 of the hit guys that would come in, he would

5 almost always make eye contact and walk directly

6 back behind the wall this way in case somebody

7 was -- Pat was always concerned that there

8 were -- the Feds were always all around taking

9 pictures.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where is that? That's

11 the back of the booth section?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Off of the kitchen, is

14 that right?

15 THE WITNESS: No. Well the kitchen was over

16 here and there was like an area here to walk by.

17 Back in here there was like a whole little room.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's on the far

19 left-hand side of this drawing?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.


22 Q. If you would like to draw that, that's

23 fine.

24 A. Here, maybe right about here there was


1 a wall. There was a wall that was about maybe

2 six feet, six, nine feet.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't you write

4 that in there where it says wall.

5 Will this become crucial? We are

6 going to have some sort of crime scene enactment.

7 MR. BOSTWICK: Right.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Wall right there.

9 THE WITNESS: There was a wall right here.

10 Directly behind the wall you had like three

11 booths. There were some booths over here. Then

12 you had a series of tables over in here.

13 And that section was basically only

14 open during lunchtime. It was open from about

15 11:30 until about 2:00. And they'd seat people

16 back there and feed them. After those people

17 left that section would be closed up again.

18 So, if you came here in the morning,

19 you could go back in here and have privacy. If

20 you came by in the late afternoon, evening, that

21 was all private.


23 Q. With those modifications is that a

24 reasonably fair and accurate diagram of


1 Counselor's Row?

2 A. Yes, it appears to be.

3 Q. Where is the booth that you have been

4 referring to?

5 A. Over here now too, over here

6 (indicating).

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: He is asking you where

8 this booth is. Where is the booth?


10 Q. Where is the booth? Where is the

11 booth -- Pat Marcy's booth?

12 A. It wasn't a booth. It was a table.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: The 1st Ward table.

14 THE WITNESS: 1st Ward table.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Put an X or something

16 there.

17 THE WITNESS: I will put 1st. That was the

18 1st Ward table back in that corner.

19 MR. BOSTWICK: With that I'd introduce

20 168-A.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, okay. I am

22 waiting to see how this fits in with those

23 modifications. All right.



1 Q. Just leave that there for a moment.

2 What type of business did you

3 generally conduct with Pat Marcy and Fred Roti in

4 and around Counselor's Row?

5 A. Well, again, a lot of legitimate

6 business. I certainly at times had legitimate

7 things I did there. Not too many legitimate

8 things with them. But I discussed a lot of the

9 cases we were fixing that were illegal, other

10 illegal things that we did.

11 Q. Were you aware of whether Fred Roti

12 had a relationship, a family relationship, with

13 any of the Carusos that you knew to be members of

14 the 26th Street crew?

15 A. Again, I had been told that he was

16 related. They were -- they were relatives, but I

17 don't know if it's true or not. I was told they

18 were relatives of his. I never questioned that.

19 I never asked what that relationship was. I

20 never questioned that.

21 Q. Through your connection with the

22 1st Ward and your discussions with Pat Marcy and

23 Fred Roti, did you understand that organized

24 crime was involved in labor union corruption?


1 A. Yes, sir.

2 MR. CARMELL: Wait, wait.


4 Q. Did you ever hear --

5 MR. CARMELL: He has combined Pat Marcy and

6 Fred Roti and come to a conclusion.


8 MR. BOSTWICK: We can go.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go slow. Walk us

10 through that again, just a little slower.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: We will do one at a time.


13 Q. Through your discussions with Pat

14 Marcy did you understand that organized crime was

15 involved in labor union corruption?

16 A. Yes, sir, I did.

17 Q. Did you have any discussions

18 specifically with Mr. Marcy to that effect?

19 A. Many times. I mean that subject was

20 brought up many times.

21 Q. Did you have any discussions with him

22 about the power that Pat Marcy could exert over

23 city workers?

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q. Can you describe for us the nature of

2 these conversations?

3 A. Anybody that wanted a job Pat would

4 get it for them. If anybody wanted to work on --

5 wanted a job through one of the unions and if Pat

6 wished to, he could certainly do it.

7 Q. Did you have similar discussions with

8 Fred Roti about these matters?

9 A. Not as many but on occasion. I was --

10 during the time I was working with the

11 authorities and I was wearing a wire, we taped a

12 series of conversations where Roti would be

13 telling other aldermen if you need certain things

14 or if you want to get something done, we will do

15 it, I will do it. We have recordings of this.

16 Q. To your knowledge, were mob associates

17 or mob members placed in city jobs by the

18 Laborers union?

19 A. Oh, yes, sir.

20 Q. Can you name any?

21 MR. CARMELL: Wait. He has made the

22 assumption that the Laborers union places the

23 jobs.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's a big jump.


1 MR. CARMELL: That is a big jump.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: That is a big jump.

3 We talked about city workers. One of the city --

4 one of the unions of the Laborers does handle

5 city street people, street employees, 1001.

6 But then you had a discussion about if

7 anybody wants a job with the union Pat Marcy

8 could do it or Roti could do it. Now, we are

9 moving into the next area.

10 MR. BOSTWICK: Why don't we focus on a

11 specific individual instead of --

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Then you could flow

13 from there. Give some examples or whatever. You

14 are in the area. Mr. Carmell's point was good.

15 We suddenly got to the Laborers International

16 Union and we skipped one step.


18 Q. The Laborers -- I'm sorry.

19 Robert Abbinanti that you were

20 discussing previously, the individual you gambled

21 with and/or through I should say and hung out

22 with in the evenings and who you knew to be a

23 member of organized crime, did he have a job to

24 your knowledge?


1 A. Yes, sir, he did. Well, after a

2 certain point, yes, he began working as a tow

3 truck driver for the City.

4 Q. And do you know if he was a member of

5 a union?

6 A. Yes, he was a member of the union.

7 Q. Do you remember whether that was

8 Streets and Sanitation workers?

9 A. Again, I don't know which union it

10 was. I know he belonged to a union.

11 Q. Do you know how -- did you ever have

12 discussions with Mr. Abbinanti about how he got

13 that job?

14 A. Yes, sir, I did.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: And why don't we wait until

16 this telephone.


18 Q. What did Mr. Abbinanti tell you about

19 how he got his job?

20 A. Well, he had been sponsored for it I

21 believe through Alderman Laurino, but, again, he

22 got it through his connections. He made it very

23 clear that he got it through his connections.

24 Q. When you say his connections, his


1 connections in organized crime?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Are you -- did you ever see

4 Mr. Abbinanti at work?

5 A. Many times. I saw him at the office

6 he was supposed to work out of, yes, sir.

7 Q. And what was he doing?

8 A. Well, I was usually collecting money

9 or paying him money from my gambling, my gambling

10 with his office or we were ready to go someplace

11 else and do something else.

12 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, before he

13 goes to Abbinanti, he better establish that that

14 tow truck driver job is one of the Laborer

15 union's jurisdictions.

16 You have been around long enough. Did

17 you hear the word driver? He better establish

18 that that is LIUNA in that jurisdiction.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Either that or

20 Teamsters.

21 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't think I have to do

22 this through this witness.

23 MR. CARMELL: He can't bring this in if he

24 belonged to another union.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Wait. He has gone so

2 far. He said he heard that he had to have a

3 sponsor to get this truck job. All right. So,

4 all right. We passed that.

5 MR. CARMELL: What we are into now is what

6 he -- apparently doesn't even take a genius to

7 figure is what Mr. Cooley is saying is that he

8 saw him, Mr. Abbinanti, but not doing tow truck

9 work, at his office doing other work.

10 THE WITNESS: Working the phones.

11 MR. CARMELL: Working the phones.

12 MR. BOSTWICK: Bookmaking.

13 THE WITNESS: Bookmaking.

14 MR. CARMELL: If this is a no-show, if it is

15 something else, he has to tie that city job to

16 one of the locals here.

17 MR. BOSTWICK: Certainly I don't have to do

18 that through this witness.

19 MR. CARMELL: You can't bring in testimony

20 of somebody who might have been another totally

21 --

22 MR. BOSTWICK: I can proffer.

23 MR. CARMELL: Let me finish.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Finish it up.


1 MR. CARMELL: -- another international union

2 as evidence here.

3 THE HEARING OFFICER: There is no question

4 you can't do that.

5 Now, the question is he might not

6 know -- you could establish this, that he went

7 down there and he didn't see him drive a truck.

8 He saw him taking book. That's what I think the

9 testimony says. All right?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Now, he doesn't know

12 if that is a 1001 job or if it belongs to 703

13 from the Teamsters. So, now, I don't know that

14 either.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: I will have to prove that up

16 through another witness.

17 MR. CARMELL: No. You can't do that second

18 unless you are going to then strike all the

19 testimony automatically, strike it if they don't

20 tie it up.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: If they don't tie it

22 up, this is a useless gesture right here.

23 MR. CARMELL: Okay.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I realize that. I


1 think in fairness he could say I saw him down

2 there. I don't know anything about it. I don't

3 know one union from another. Two days later

4 somebody will come in here and tie it up maybe.

5 So, if it doesn't, this is just an

6 interesting story about Abbinanti wherever he was

7 taking book.


9 Q. This is the Bobby Abbinanti who is

10 friends with Frank Caruso, is that correct?

11 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

12 MR. BOSTWICK: Through another witness I

13 will proffer.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: When we get to it, we

15 will get to it.

16 THE WITNESS: Again, I have no idea what

17 union it was and I never asked him. I don't

18 know.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: We don't expect that.

20 You just tell him what you saw and that's it.

21 Fine. Do you have an idea what the location

22 was?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, over at the Brickyard.

24 During many of the periods when I saw him he was


1 working out of what they called the Brickyard, a

2 place over on the northwest side of the city.


4 Brickyard? Is that a particular industrial

5 area?

6 THE WITNESS: They called it the Brickyard.

7 I remember seeing a big thing up there saying

8 Brickyard. It's like behind a shopping center.

9 It's like a shopping center. It was up there on

10 the northwest side. I was up there many times.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is that location a

12 particular office of some sort?

13 THE WITNESS: He wouldn't even call it the

14 Brickyard. I believe it's a shopping center and

15 the shopping center might be called the Brickyard

16 because I thought when I first heard it, too, I

17 thought it's some kind of a brick manufacturing

18 company but it wasn't.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where was he, in a

20 little office?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, you walk in there and

22 there is like a garage. They have a big garage

23 there where they have some trucks and some other

24 things in the garage.


1 THE HEARING OFFICER: There is an industrial

2 place. It is a garage. There is trucks there

3 belonging to somebody.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, City of Chicago I

5 believe. It was a City of Chicago like depot or

6 something. But it was right behind like a

7 shopping center. There was like a shopping

8 center right in front of it.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So far we know

10 it's some sort of depot.

11 THE WITNESS: When you go over in there,

12 there is a little office where they had just one

13 chair, a chair he sat on, the telephone, a

14 telephone on the desk and very small office in

15 there.


17 Q. Let's go to diagram 168-A and I want

18 you to describe in a little more particularity

19 using that diagram how -- what the normal

20 procedure you observed was in discussing

21 organized crime-related activities or judicial or

22 political corruption activities with Pat Marcy.

23 A. Again, most of my conversations were

24 in relation to cases we were going to fix or


1 cases Pat had for me to take care of or

2 whatever.

3 What I would do, when I would see Pat,

4 as a rule, vast majority of the times we would

5 walk directly out -- if you walk away from the

6 table just to your left there is a door leading

7 out into a hallway that goes up to the 100 North

8 building.

9 As a rule we would go directly outside

10 into the hall and we would discuss our illegal

11 activities.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: And you are describing

13 I guess a hallway behind the 1st Ward table.

14 THE WITNESS: That's correct.


16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: You'd go outside

18 there. And that hallway also goes up to the

19 stairs to the office building of that building.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. There is a series

21 of elevators. There was also a little stairway

22 right here leading upstairs to at the time there

23 was a brokerage firm. There was a commodity

24 exchange that was right upstairs on the second


1 floor.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: He established the

3 hallway outside the 1st Ward table. All right.


5 Q. Did you observe other individuals

6 having private conversations with Pat Marcy in

7 similar fashion?

8 A. Hundreds over a period of years, yes,

9 sir.

10 Q. Did you observe I believe you

11 mentioned earlier in your testimony hitmen come

12 in and discuss items with Pat Marcy?

13 A. There was a long period of time, I am

14 talking about a period of a few years when both

15 Harry and Butchie were very active in their

16 business where every Thursday, every Thursday for

17 as long as I could remember when they were

18 around, you would see Butchie and Harry come in

19 and meet with Pat.

20 Pat would -- when Butchie would come

21 in, Butchie would be Butchie alone talking with

22 Pat. Butchie and Harry would come in. Butchie

23 would go out in the hallway or more often go back

24 in the back section, closed off and be back there


1 with Pat for five, ten minutes. Butchie would

2 come back. Butchie and Harry would leave the

3 restaurant.

4 There were other times he would --

5 after they built the basement where he would come

6 in and he would go downstairs with Butchie.

7 THE HEARING OFFICER: You say every

8 Thursday.

9 THE WITNESS: Thursday was the day they

10 would meet. Every Thursday late in the

11 afternoon. Usually Butchie would come in around

12 3, 4 o'clock, maybe 5 o'clock and they would meet

13 for a period of time.


15 Q. Mr. Cooley, we have before you again

16 Exhibits 6-E, 6-F and 6-G. Did you ever see any

17 of these individuals with Pat Marcy in

18 Counselor's Row?

19 A. I have seen all three of them with Pat

20 in Counselor Row, yes, sir.

21 Q. Did you ever see any of these

22 individuals having private discussions in the

23 manner that you have just described with Pat

24 Marcy?


1 A. I saw two of them on different

2 occasions I specifically remember who would come

3 in, see Pat, walk out in the hall and then come

4 back in and then sit in. When they would come

5 in, they would go out in the hall and have

6 discussion out in the hall.

7 Q. Who is it that you saw have these

8 private discussions with Pat Marcy?

9 A. 6-E and 6-G.

10 Q. 6-E would be Bruno Caruso and 6-G

11 would be Leo Caruso?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And you testified that you saw the

14 individual in 6-F simply in Counselor's Row with

15 Pat Marcy?

16 A. I recall him being at the table.

17 Again, I recall them being at the table for

18 periods of time. But I don't recall -- I

19 specifically can't recall him actually getting up

20 and going out in the hall as I described when

21 they would go and have the private

22 conversations.

23 Q. Now, this Pat Marcy may have talked to

24 hundreds of people over periods of time. What


1 makes this -- what makes these incidents stand

2 out in your mind?

3 A. Again, because I would be at the table

4 quite often. I have been watching Pat do this

5 for many years with certain people that would

6 come in, with certain people that I got to know,

7 some judges, some politicians, some other

8 attorneys, some people who I didn't know who they

9 were.

10 Q. And did you have follow-up

11 conversations with Pat Marcy on occasion after

12 private meetings?

13 A. Oh, yes, a lot of times after we

14 talked dirty, as we would say -- Pat never said

15 he never liked to talk dirty at the table. We

16 would then come and just discuss all the normal

17 natural things about life at the table.

18 Q. On how many occasions did you see this

19 individual Bruno Caruso who is in 6-E discussing

20 private matters with Pat Marcy in the hallway at

21 Counselor's Row?

22 MR. CARMELL: Objection. Whether he --

23 unless he can say that he was present during

24 those discussions. All he knows is that he got


1 up and left.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think what he is

3 demonstrating, it is just a pattern of practice

4 that Pat Marcy walks to the table and then meets

5 people out in the hallway and talks and comes

6 back in. He is asking if he has ever seen --

7 well, his testimony is that these individuals

8 would go out in the hallway and then come back

9 in.

10 THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes, sir.


12 Q. On approximately how many occasions

13 did you see this pattern display itself with Pat

14 Marcy and Bruno Caruso who is in 6E?

15 A. At least a couple, on more than a

16 couple. Exactly how many, I don't know.

17 Q. During what period of time?

18 A. Four, five-year period.

19 Q. And during what time frame would that

20 have been?

21 A. We are talking from '70 -- probably

22 from '77 -- or '76 to about '80, '81, in that

23 area.

24 Q. How about this individual who is


1 marked as 6G, Leo Caruso?

2 A. I had also seen him on more than one

3 occasion come in and make contact with Pat and go

4 out in the hall and come back in.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's Pat's job?

6 What did Pat have to do at that time? I know you

7 said he was secretary to the --

8 THE WITNESS: Pat, his title was First Ward

9 secretary. That was his title. I was told -- I

10 was told by certain agents that Pat was one of

11 the last of the people from the Capone era.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Aside from that, what

13 was his job? What did he hold himself out to be;

14 secretary of the First Ward?

15 THE WITNESS: He had a title that I always

16 knew him as, as secretary of the First Ward.

17 That was his title.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Was that a paying job?

19 THE WITNESS: I have no idea if he got -- it

20 paid very well.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Was it a paying job?

22 Would that be in the democratic political

23 organization or what?

24 THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know. I


1 believe it may have been because when he was

2 indicted, I believe they indicted him under some

3 statutes that would have required him to be a

4 public official, but he had the title and he was

5 God there.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: And did he -- you say

7 he was a lawyer too?

8 THE WITNESS: No, Pat was no lawyer.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: That was his job as

10 far as we know, his ostensible job. He was a

11 public official of some sort in the ward machine?

12 THE WITNESS: Well, exactly. I mean, he was

13 the one -- well, actually, Pat was the one who

14 ran everything because Johnny, Senior for almost

15 as long as I knew him was in ill health and was

16 around and wasn't around. Pat was the one who

17 ran all of the business there.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I interrupted you.

19 You were asking about Leo Caruso. I cut you off.


21 Q. Yes. I would ask you the same

22 questions about Leo Caruso.

23 You indicated there were occasions

24 where you saw Leo Caruso come and talk privately


1 to Pat Marcy in the same manner, is that correct?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Over what period of time?

4 A. Again, over a four or five-year

5 period.

6 Q. Approximately what time frame would

7 that have been? Would that have been the same

8 time frame as Bruno Caruso?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So, in other words, 1976 or '77

11 through the early '80s?

12 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

13 Q. Let me switch to another topic. Who

14 is Blackie Pesoli?

15 A. Blackie was a policeman -- a policeman

16 who worked traffic in the City of Chicago. When

17 I met him he was -- he had been a bodyguard for

18 Johnny, Senior. He was an associate of Butchie

19 and an associate of Harry's. He was somebody I

20 met.

21 Q. Butchie Petrocelli and Harry Aleman?

22 A. Yes, sir. He spent a lot of time --

23 his job when I met him, his job, he was supposed

24 to be in charge of the Greyhound Bus Station. He


1 had a little office downstairs and he was there

2 to keep everybody in line. That was his job.

3 Q. Did you ever have an awareness of

4 whether he was involved in organized crime in any

5 way?

6 A. He was certainly involved in organized

7 crime, yes, sir.

8 Q. How do you know that?

9 A. He told me. He made it very clear. I

10 met him on many occasions with Butchie, with

11 Harry. I did a lot of illegal things, again,

12 with him.

13 Q. Such as what?

14 A. Fixed a lot of cases.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why would you fix a

16 case for the -- with a policeman?

17 THE WITNESS: With cash.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is he doing?

19 What is he doing? He has to be someplace to do

20 something with. He was downstairs at the bus

21 station here?

22 THE WITNESS: No, no. He was supposed to

23 be. He was never there. Blackie roamed around.

24 There was nobody around. Blackie came and went


1 as he pleased. He was in charge of the station.

2 There were a couple other people that worked

3 there under him. Blackie was wherever Blackie

4 was all day long. Blackie as I say had been tied

5 up with Johnny, Senior for many years.

6 Q. John D'Arco, Senior?

7 A. Yes, sir. Blackie -- Blackie was very

8 well connected with everybody from -- after I

9 left town, they found Accardo -- there were calls

10 made from Accardo's house in California to

11 Blackie's residence. Blackie was connected with

12 all sorts of top mob people all around the city,

13 both the Cicero group, the Chinatown group,

14 Elmwood Park group.

15 THE HEARING OFFICER: How do you know that?

16 THE WITNESS: Again, from conversations with

17 him and from different businesses and different

18 business that he brought me. He brought me cases

19 from all of these people over a period of years.


21 Q. He brought you cases from organized

22 crime members like Marco D'Amico did?

23 A. No, no. Marco brought me a lot of

24 business, but the same way. Never from Marco's


1 group. Blackie too had a lot of contacts over in

2 the traffic court, and when the First Ward was in

3 power, they put Tony Bertucca over there in

4 charge of traffic court. He was the Corporation

5 Council in charge of traffic court.

6 Blackie used his office as his own

7 office and Blackie would fix a lot of traffic

8 tickets for myself and clients of mine. He would

9 make contact with some of the judges. I didn't

10 know anybody over there to fix certain cases.

11 Blackie had contacts all around the court

12 system. A lot of judges knew Blackie and trusted

13 Blackie that didn't deal with other people.

14 Q. Did there come a time when Blackie

15 Pesoli asked you to fix a case for the Carusos?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Can you tell us when that occurred and

18 what occurred?

19 A. Blackie got ahold of me or saw me one

20 day in Counselor's Row and asked me if I could

21 help. There were three policemen who were

22 charged with killing a black man.

23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Can we have a time on

24 this conversation roughly?



2 A. Again, I don't -- whenever the case

3 took place. It was a case -- there was a case

4 where three policemen as I remember were charged

5 with killing a black guy up in the el tracks.

6 Apparently the guy had been smoking and mouthed

7 off to them when they arrested him and they wound

8 up beating the guy to death. The guy was

9 killed.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. We can

11 locate the case eventually, but what time

12 roughly, what year was it?

13 THE WITNESS: I would say it was about '82,

14 '83, probably somewhere around there. Maybe

15 '84, '85. Somewhere in that area.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. You're

17 relating to this conversation.


19 Q. Early to mid '80s?

20 A. It had to be in the mid '80s because I

21 had broken away from Johnny by this time. I was

22 no longer partners with Johnny, so it was like in

23 the mid '80s. Blackie got ahold of me and he

24 said, you know -- and he said, you know, can you


1 handle -- can you help out on the case. And I

2 said I had been out of town apparently when the

3 arrest took place because I didn't know what it

4 was and I asked him what the situation was. And

5 he told me that he was contacted by -- he said I

6 was contacted by Caruso. One of the coppers is

7 related to Angelo and he wants to make sure that

8 these guys are cut loose. He wants to make sure

9 they are not found guilty. Can you handle the

10 case? I told him I would check and see what I

11 could do.

12 I made some inquiries and I found out

13 that somebody had gone to Pat Marcy and Pat Marcy

14 had referred the case to -- had brought another

15 lawyer in on the case.

16 Q. Who was the other lawyer?

17 A. Sam Banks. Sam Banks was brought in

18 on the case and so I went and I saw Pat and I

19 told Pat, I said, Pat, if you want some help --

20 he said maybe you can help because I knew a lot

21 of police and whatever. He said maybe you can

22 help. He said but you have to work with Sam

23 Banks, and I just -- I don't want to work with

24 Sam Banks. I also found out during that time the


1 case --

2 Q. Let me stop you there for a second.

3 Did you -- did you discuss with Pat Marcy the

4 fact that you understood it was the Carusos who

5 wanted this work done?

6 A. I told Pat, I said, Pat, I am not

7 looking to step on your toes, but I said Blackie

8 got ahold of me and Blackie told me that Caruso

9 was interested, was interested in this and wanted

10 to make sure that the matter was going to be

11 taken care of. And Pat said, yeah. He said he

12 got ahold of me. He said he got ahold of me and

13 we are doing what we have to do. It is all -- I

14 think it is being taken care of, but maybe you

15 want to work with him on it. If you want to,

16 that's fine. I just told him, no, I didn't want

17 to work with Sam Banks. I just didn't care to.

18 Q. Did you eventually work on that case?

19 A. No, I did not work on that case. I

20 went and saw the judge. I knew the judge in the

21 case. The judge was Cieslik, Arthur Cieslik at

22 the time and Cieslik was a good friend of mine.

23 I used to go to his court all of the time. That

24 was one of the places I stopped when I was at


1 26th Street just to chitchat with him because we

2 got along real good.

3 So I went up to his court and sat

4 there and when I came in, he chased everybody

5 else out of the room and he said to me -- he

6 said, you have to help me. He said the ward is

7 pressuring me on this thing. He said that's a

8 bad case. It is a brutal case. He said I don't

9 know what to do. I just said look, judge, do

10 what you think is right. I said the ward --

11 nothing is going to happen to you. Just do what

12 you think is right.

13 He then told me he was being pressured

14 by certain other people who were really squeezing

15 him, and he said I don't know what to do. He

16 said Banks isn't doing a good job. He said Banks

17 is representing all three people. There is a

18 conflict here. It is a terrible case. I just

19 basically said do what you have to do.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is giving this

21 conversation to you?

22 THE WITNESS: The judge, Judge Cieslik.


24 Q. Then did you find out the outcome of


1 that case?

2 A. Yes. The judge found him guilty I

3 believe. He found him guilty I believe of

4 manslaughter.

5 Q. Did Blackie Pesoli again consult you

6 about working on an appeal?

7 A. Yes, sir. He got ahold of me again

8 afterwards and he said, look. He said, well,

9 again, they were attempting to pressure the judge

10 not to give them jail time, to give them

11 probation.

12 Q. When you say they, who is they?

13 A. I'd rather not say. I know the people

14 involved, but they haven't been indicted. The

15 people who were doing it in particular are very,

16 very well connected politically right now in the

17 city and they have not been indicted. The FBI

18 investigated them on this, but they haven't

19 indicted them, so it is probably best I don't

20 mention the particular names of the people. But,

21 again, certain powerful people were pressuring

22 the judge to give them probation and the judge

23 just didn't feel he should and the judge gave

24 them some time.


1 Q. What did Blackie Pesoli ask you, or

2 describe your conversation with Blackie Pesoli

3 with respect to the appellate work that he wanted

4 done?

5 A. After they got convicted he then again

6 saw me and contacted me and wanted to know if I

7 could do something in the Appellate Court to get

8 it -- for a reversal. I just told Blackie I want

9 nothing to do with it. Nothing I can do. It is

10 in Pat's hands and let it go the way it is going

11 to go.

12 Q. Do you recall if the Caruso name was

13 mentioned at that time?

14 A. Again, he mentioned they are willing

15 to pay whatever it takes. Apparently Angelo I

16 guess was related in some way to one of the

17 policemen and was very concerned about the fact

18 that he has to go to jail. He didn't want him to

19 go to jail.

20 Q. Did you understand why it was that one

21 of these Carusos had any interest in this case at

22 all?

23 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.

24 MR. BOSTWICK: From your discussions with --


1 MR. CARMELL: He said one of the Carusos.

2 The only thing that is in here, and Mr. Cooley

3 has been very careful, said Caruso wants me or

4 Caruso came about through Blackie, that Blackie

5 said that Caruso said. That's all that's there.

6 THE WITNESS: That's correct, that's exactly

7 what it was. He did not say who. He just said

8 Caruso wants -- Caruso wants to make certain that

9 this one in particular doesn't go to prison, and

10 I just told him I can't -- I am not getting

11 involved in it.


13 Q. Do you know what -- did you make any

14 connections from your prior experience as to who

15 this Caruso might be or what relationship they

16 might have, if any, to the 26th Street Crew?

17 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.

18 Mr. Cooley has been very careful to say what was

19 said and it is no longer relevant what he might

20 have assumed -- what he might have assumed from

21 that conversation.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: I know. What you're

23 looking for is the connection that somebody is

24 related here. He hasn't said that. That is just


1 too far of a jump.


3 THE HEARING OFFICER: He hasn't made that

4 connection about the relatives and so forth.

5 Right now that would be conjecture. There is a

6 inference probably that might be floating around

7 here, but he hasn't said it and can't make it.

8 MR. CARMELL: Other people can draw from

9 this record whatever they want to but not to put

10 it into this witness' mouth when he has been very

11 careful to say what he recalls.

12 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, in terms of

13 Mr. Cooley's working understanding of what was

14 happening at the time and if this came out of the

15 26th Street Crew and how and what relationship to

16 it there was.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I think you have

18 gone about as far as you can go. You know, it is

19 a conversation here on appeal that one of the

20 Carusos wanted it to happen, at least one of the

21 individuals to be protected, but that's about as

22 far as you can go with it.

23 MR. CARMELL: I understand that you spoke

24 off the top. You said one of the Carusos. The


1 testimony was Caruso.


3 MR. CARMELL: That's --

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, that would be

5 one. Is that more than one?

6 MR. CARMELL: We have three photographs out

7 there and that's all I am saying. I know that

8 when you spoke you were speaking just Caruso.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: I was doing it

10 generically. There is no question he said

11 Caruso.

12 Mr. Bostwick, I think you have gone as

13 far with trying to milk this, I am not trying to

14 say milk in the wrong way, trying to get the

15 right word or right description out of it. He

16 has given you about as much as he can as the

17 English language will let him do.


19 Q. Let me make sure it is on the record.

20 Did this case have anything to do with Angelo

21 LaPietra to your understanding?

22 A. From what I was told, it was one of

23 the policemen was some relation to Angelo.

24 Q. Angelo LaPietra?


1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Who were you told that by?

3 A. By Blackie.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. One of the

5 persons was related to Angelo LaPietra?

6 THE WITNESS: One of the policemen that

7 killed the guy had some relation and I assume

8 when he told me that he meant blood relation.

9 One of them was related to Angelo.

10 THE HEARING OFFICER: There is no relation

11 to anybody else that we are talking about?

12 THE WITNESS: No, no.


14 MR. BOSTWICK: Perhaps if we could take a

15 five-minute break, I could finalize some

16 questions.

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whatever, whatever you

18 need.

19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: We are underway,

21 gentlemen. Here we go.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: I appreciate everybody's

23 patience today. I think we are moving into the

24 last portion of this testimony.



2 Q. Mr. Cooley, earlier in your testimony

3 and throughout you've identified a number of

4 individuals who were your associates and I just

5 want to go through a few exhibits, introduce

6 them.

7 MR. BOSTWICK: I have gotten a stipulation

8 from Mr. Carmell on the authenticity but not as

9 to -- he is reserving his right to argue

10 relevance and other topics.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: In other words, the

12 document is what the document is; but if it fits

13 into the case, that still remains to be proved.

14 MR. BOSTWICK: Exactly. These documents

15 were obtained simply from the courthouse records.

16 MR. CARMELL: That is correct. We have one

17 document which we will get to that a page needs

18 to be supplied or explained.


20 Q. Let me show you the first document.

21 This is a plea agreement. It's signed in the

22 back on page 19 by a number of people, April 28,

23 1995, and the case caption is United States of

24 America vs. Robert M. Abbinanti.


1 MR. CARMELL: Would you identify the number.


3 Q. It's GEB Attorney Exhibit No. 9 and if

4 I could have you just take a look at that and

5 tell me what that is.

6 MR. CARMELL: I thought we were just going

7 to say --


9 Q. Okay. Is this the same Robert

10 Abbinanti or Bobby Abbinanti that you have been

11 referring to throughout your testimony?

12 A. Yes, sir, it is.

13 MR. BOSTWICK: And I would also simply move

14 admission at this time of Exhibit 10, which is

15 the judgment in that same case.

16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Admitted.

17 (WHEREUPON, said documents,

18 previously marked GEB Attorney

19 Exhibit Nos. 9 and 10, for

20 identification, were offered

21 and received in evidence.)


23 Q. Let me refer you to Exhibit No. 22,

24 GEB Attorney Exhibit No. 22. The case caption is


1 United States of America vs. Roland Borelli and

2 that is a 12-page document that is signed on the

3 back May 9, 1995.

4 I'd simply ask you to take a look at

5 that and I'll ask you if that's the same Roland

6 Borelli that you were referring to in your

7 testimony.

8 A. Yes, sir, I believe it is.

9 Q. And that's a plea agreement?

10 A. That's correct.

11 MR. BOSTWICK: This is Exhibit 23. I'll

12 offer it as well at this time and that is the

13 judgment of Mr. Borelli in the same case.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Those are admitted.

15 (WHEREUPON, said documents,

16 previously marked GEB Attorney

17 Exhibit Nos. 22 and 23, for

18 identification, were offered

19 and received in evidence.)


21 Q. This next document is GEB Attorney

22 Exhibit No. 31. It's entitled Stipulation. It's

23 United States vs. Marco Damico and Mr. Damico on

24 the first page here is admitting to functioning


1 as the second in command at the Elmwood Park crew

2 and being involved in organized crime, and it

3 further related throughout -- it's a three-page

4 document.

5 And I will show this to you and ask

6 you if that is the same Marco Damico that we have

7 been hearing about through your testimony.

8 A. Yes, sir, it is.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is this? It's a

10 stipulation. Government and defense attorneys

11 are saying that if --

12 MR. CARMELL: This apparently is on

13 sentencing for the level.

14 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct. We were

15 unable to find the actual plea agreement on that

16 case, but this is something that we did find to

17 corroborate Mr. Cooley's testimony.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is stipulating to

19 this? Oh, Damico himself is signing this.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: Damico, his attorney and the

21 U.S. Attorneys so that they can come to an

22 agreement on the sentencing guidelines I believe

23 is the purpose of that document.

24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead,


1 gentlemen.

2 THE WITNESS: I believe he had Tom Sullivan,

3 didn't he? I believe Tom Sullivan was his

4 attorney.

5 MR. BOSTWICK: It says William Von Hoene.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: William Von Hoene.

7 THE WITNESS: Probably from their office.

8 MR. BOSTWICK: I will move the admission of

9 that exhibit as well, 31.


11 (WHEREUPON, said document,

12 previously marked GEB Attorney

13 Exhibit No. 31, for

14 identification, was offered

15 and received in evidence.)


17 Q. Now, there are four documents related

18 to the next case and I will take them one at a

19 time.

20 Exhibit 40, GEB Attorney Exhibit No.

21 40, is a 32-page signed indictment captioned

22 United States vs. Pasquale Marcy, also known as

23 Pat Marcy, and Fred Roti.

24 I've asked you to take a look at that


1 and tell me if that's the same Pat Marcy and Fred

2 Roti that you have been discussing during your

3 testimony.

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 MR. BOSTWICK: And I would simply offer the

6 judgment in that case, which is Exhibit 41, as

7 well. So I am offering Exhibit 40 and 41.

8 And there is excerpts from the

9 sentencing proceedings which I think give a --

10 give the independent officer some brief and quick

11 understanding of the way the judge in that case

12 viewed some of Mr. Roti's conduct. That's

13 Exhibit 43. It's also from that case file.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: What is 43? I don't

15 have it here. I have got 40 and 41.

16 MR. BOSTWICK: I think your assistant has

17 that. That's 42 actually. This is 43. 42 is

18 the one I am going to get to right now. But if

19 youd' like a moment to look at 43.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. I will keep

21 track of them.

22 MR. BOSTWICK: Exhibit 42 I will try to find

23 the second page of this document. As Mr. Carmell

24 pointed out, I believe there is a second page of


1 this letter on Exhibit 42.

2 But this is a 302 that was attached to

3 the record in this case, a 302 of Wilson Moy, and

4 the only purpose of that is to note that in the

5 302 an individual named Wilson Moy was

6 interviewed and referenced 26th Street crew

7 activities and the payment of certain taxes to

8 Shorty LaMantia, Aldo Piscitelli, who we heard

9 testimony about, and Skids Caruso during the time

10 periods in the -- relating to the report. It's a

11 five-page 302.

12 THE HEARING OFFICER: And that's what?

13 MR. BOSTWICK: Exhibit 42. So, the exhibits

14 in the last portion here that I will move are

15 Exhibits 40, 41, 42 and 43.


17 MR. CARMELL: That's what we are trying to

18 find. That is the page that is missing.

19 MR. BOSTWICK: There is a missing page.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Obviously it's one of

21 the -- it's on the United States Attorney's

22 letterhead. So, probably would be a prosecutor.

23 MR. CARMELL: Might be the prosecutor.

24 MR. BOSTWICK: I think this might be a


1 copying mistake. We will simply find that page

2 and insert it. If we are unable to find it, this

3 is the form we received it.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: It was sent to Dan

5 Webb and Eddie Jensen.

6 MR. CARMELL: Again, this is one beating the

7 dead horse that it's authentic. So, but the

8 arguments we will make from it we will reserve.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand that. I

10 am just trying to --

11 MR. CARMELL: We will get the second page

12 and it's all right with me, Dwight, if you then

13 insert that page into all of the copies and send

14 us that page, we can insert them.

15 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, we will attempt to do

16 that through our paralegal staff here. I am

17 simply waiting on the move on the admission of

18 those documents.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: I will accept it.

20 MR. BOSTWICK: 40 through 43.

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: They are admitted,

22 sir.

23 (WHEREUPON, said documents,

24 previously marked GEB Attorney


1 Exhibit Nos. 40 through 43, for

2 identification, were offered

3 and received in evidence.)


5 Q. Now, Mr. Cooley, did you review

6 certain transcripts of tapes, consensual tapes

7 that you made in connection with your cooperation

8 with the FBI?

9 A. Yes, sir, I did.

10 Q. And were those transcripts in the form

11 that they were introduced in these various

12 trials?

13 A. They were part of the evidence in

14 these trials, yes, sir.

15 Q. Why did you do this?

16 A. To see if there were things in there

17 that might possibly corroborate some of the

18 things that I was going to talk to you about.

19 Q. Whose idea was that initially?

20 A. I asked you, see if you could get some

21 of those tapes because I do remember talking,

22 even though the trials had nothing to do with

23 some of these people, I remember some of the

24 conversations that we had that were recorded were


1 in reference to some of the things that I had

2 talked to you about and told you about.

3 Q. Did you recall some taped

4 conversations relating to Bobby Abbinanti, for

5 instance?

6 A. Yes, sir, I remembered a specific

7 conversation I had with Fred Roti and with

8 Alderman Laurino about Bobby Abbinanti.

9 Q. Did you recall conversations relating

10 to Toots Caruso or believe there might be such

11 conversations?

12 A. I -- yes, sir, I did.

13 Q. Are all of the -- are the transcripts

14 that you reviewed all of the transcripts --

15 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me.


17 MR. CARMELL: I missed something. He said

18 concerning Toots Caruso and is there a place in

19 this tape that mentions Caruso?

20 MR. BOSTWICK: No, that is what the next

21 question is about.

22 MR. CARMELL: Sorry.


24 Q. Are all -- did you review all of the


1 consensual recordings that you made for the FBI

2 in preparation of this case here?

3 A. No, sir, I did not.

4 Q. You were only able to review those

5 that were introduced in the trials that you

6 testified about earlier?

7 A. I was able to review some of those

8 that were introduced. There were other tapes

9 made I believe during some of the trials that I

10 didn't see, but I found out from these tapes a

11 lot of the conversations that I did have that

12 were recorded and were in fact -- I did in fact

13 transcribe were not part of these tapes because

14 they were not allowed as evidence during the

15 trial because they were not pertinent to the

16 cases at hand.

17 Q. Let me show you what's marked as just

18 in handwriting here as Exhibit 169-A. Is this

19 one of the documents that you pulled, one of the

20 transcripts that you pulled?

21 A. Yes, sir, it is.

22 Q. And why did you pull that transcript?

23 A. This was --

24 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me just clarify that


1 there is an indication here of a Government

2 Exhibit sticker at the top which makes this a

3 little confusing. Our exhibit sticker at the

4 bottom is 169-A.

5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where did you get

6 these transcripts?

7 MR. BOSTWICK: These were press -- I can

8 represent that we got these from the U.S.

9 Attorney's office. They were part of a packet

10 that was given to the press in Chicago when these

11 cases went to trial and so these are copies of

12 what the press received.

13 We also have access to the tapes

14 themselves which we will offer to introduce as

15 well in case you wanted to listen to those and

16 have those as the specific evidence.


18 MR. BOSTWICK: But these are the

19 transcripts.

20 THE HEARING OFFICER: The U.S. Attorney is

21 issuing Jencks material to the press, is that

22 it?

23 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't know on what -- maybe

24 Sherman Carmell who is practicing around here. I


1 don't know why.

2 THE HEARING OFFICER: I take your word for

3 it.

4 MR. CARMELL: I think these were -- my

5 understanding was that these tapes were

6 introduced in the trial as transcripts of

7 recordings that Mr. Cooley had had.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's correct.

9 MR. CARMELL: Of tapes.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

11 MR. CARMELL: And that rather than playing

12 the recording or maybe an adjunct to playing the

13 recording they introduced it.


15 MR. CARMELL: Parts of it as I understand

16 were not admitted into evidence and what you have

17 here are the parts that are in the public record.

18 THE WITNESS: That's right.

19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. U.S. Attorney

20 just put it together, gave it to the press.

21 MR. CARMELL: And gave it to the press.

22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Rather than being

23 beseiged by calls.

24 MR. CARMELL: Apparently. But we do know


1 that from the representations of Mr. Bostwick and

2 the statements of Mr. Cooley that these are in

3 the public record in those trials.

4 THE HEARING OFFICER: I assume that.

5 MR. CARMELL: That's why they are out.

6 MR. BOSTWICK: I should have let Mr. Carmell

7 handle that in the first instance. He did a

8 better job than I did.

9 MR. CARMELL: I want to discern between

10 those and public records because we had

11 discussions of those that are statements of

12 things.


14 Q. Mr. Cooley, why did you pick out or

15 select Exhibit 169-A?

16 A. This is a conversation I had with then

17 Judge Anthony Scotillo who at that time was a

18 sitting judge in the Chancery Division.

19 Q. What was the date of the recording?

20 A. The date of the recording is 8/23/89.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. This is a short time before I left

23 town, a few months before I left town.

24 Q. What does it pertain to?


1 A. Well, I arranged to meet the judge for

2 one of the targets for a case that he had fixed.

3 I had fixed a case through Johnny D'Arco, Jr. and

4 the short time before this -- my meeting with

5 him, they had found a bug that had been planted

6 in Counselor's Row, the FBI.

7 Q. Who is they?

8 A. The FBI planted a bug in Counselor's

9 Row adjacent to the 1st Ward table.

10 Q. And who found it?

11 A. One of the busboys from the restaurant

12 found the bug and there was all kinds of

13 commotion about the fact that a bug had been

14 found at the 1st Ward table. And I had been

15 involved in a lot of very interesting meetings

16 and situations a short time before this. So.

17 Q. Illegal meetings?

18 A. Well --

19 Q. Meetings about illegal activities?

20 A. Meetings about illegal activities that

21 I was working on for the Government and they were

22 concerned and I was also a little concerned that

23 certain people might decide that I was just too

24 difficult a potential problem for them because I


1 was around all these things that were happening.

2 And so I wanted to see Judge Scotillo

3 to try to put him at ease that he didn't have a

4 problem with the bug. And I arranged to bump

5 into Judge Scotillo on his way to court. I knew

6 when he went to court and how he went to court.

7 I arranged to be on Michigan Avenue as he came

8 by.

9 As he came by, I said, Judge, I heard

10 they found a bug over in Counselor's Row and Tony

11 said, yeah, but basically I don't think it's

12 going to be a problem. He said -- and then he

13 proceeded to tell me exactly what I was telling

14 you, how it worked at Counselor's Row.

15 Judge Scotillo indicated to me --

16 Q. What page?

17 A. On page 3, Judge Scotillo indicated to

18 me no, they go to the back of the restaurant or

19 in that booth or they go outside in the hallway,

20 meaning when they talk about something illegal.

21 He is indicating he never talked and that other

22 people that are doing illegal things don't talk

23 at the table. They walk out into the hallway.

24 They walk out into the booth or they go into


1 the -- or they go in the back of the restaurant.

2 And I felt this was in corroboration of what I

3 had told you. That is exactly how we did it over

4 there at Counselor's.

5 Q. Exhibit 169-B, that's also one of the

6 records that you pulled. Can you tell me why you

7 pulled that?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. First of all, who is the conversation

10 with and when is it, what is the date?

11 A. This is a conversation that I remember

12 took place when I was talking with Fred Roti

13 during one of my payoffs to him. We were walking

14 to the back booth. We were in the back of the

15 Counselor's Row restaurant.

16 Prior to going in the back to talk to

17 him to give him some of the money from one of the

18 cases or one of the matters we were fixing,

19 Alderman Laurino had come in and was at the 1st

20 Ward table. There were two or three other

21 aldermen sitting there at the 1st Ward table.

22 We went in the back to talk about the

23 money I was giving them. What I indicated to him

24 at this time was I should talk to Alderman


1 Laurino and warn him that Bobby is going to have

2 problems one of these days. He is going to be a

3 problem for him because I told him that Bobby is

4 on the medical. He won't go back to work and he

5 gets into, not one, but two big fights with

6 coppers where he beats the hell out of them and

7 gets arrested for it.

8 Q. Now, when you say he is on the

9 medical, what do you mean by that statement? Can

10 you expand on that a little bit?

11 A. Bobby wasn't working. He was supposed

12 to be working.

13 Q. For the city?

14 A. On the city job. He was supposed to

15 be. He wasn't able to work because he supposedly

16 had a bad back and he hadn't been working for a

17 period of time. He was at Mother's or he was at

18 Faces one time where he beat up two policemen and

19 got arrested and he was in a second fight where

20 he beat up another policeman and got arrested a

21 second time.

22 Q. Your concern as you explained this to

23 them is that Bobby Abbinanti is going to get them

24 in trouble because he is in the union not working


1 for medical reasons, but he is beating -- but he

2 is beating up policemen in the meantime?

3 A. Well, Bobby --

4 MR. CARMELL: I object mostly to the part

5 about -- in the union part. He said what he said

6 and he has added a lot of things which he may

7 want to draw but which were not said in the

8 conversation.

9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, yeah, that was a

10 strange question. Do you want to run that

11 question by again because there was a lot of --


13 Q. Why don't you describe in more detail

14 why you were -- why you were highlighting this

15 issue with Bobby Abbinanti to these individuals?

16 A. When I was talking to you --

17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Wait. Go back. I am

18 missing something. Highlighting what issue to

19 what individuals?


21 Q. Who were you talking to? We will do

22 it in shorter steps.

23 A. When I first met with you, I was asked

24 to talk to you and to see whether or not, in


1 fact, I could give you some information that

2 could be helpful in terms of your investigation

3 of some of the union activities by some of the

4 people, the mob related people here in Chicago.



7 A. And I told you, I said that among

8 other people there was one in particular, there

9 was Bobby Abbinanti had not one but two different

10 occasions while he is getting paid, he is on the

11 medical, he has an action. In fact, I think he

12 filed an action to collect under workmen's comp

13 or something for the so-called injuries that he

14 had while working, and I told you that he had

15 gotten in trouble not once but twice, and when I

16 told him he better be careful, he is going to

17 blow his job, he said they can't touch me. I am

18 in the union and my guys will protect me. Nobody

19 is going to bother with me, and he wasn't worried

20 about it. I warned him after the first occasion

21 and he went and got arrested a second time while

22 he was on the medical.

23 I asked you to get me copies of these

24 things and I saw this. Here is exactly where --


1 my conversation here is where I am telling Roti

2 that I am going to talk to Laurino about it. My

3 conversation with Laurino isn't recorded here,

4 but there was a conversation with Laurino back at

5 the table and I believe that conversation was

6 also recorded where I told him exactly what I

7 told you.

8 Q. What do you tell Mr. Roti in this --

9 if you could just paraphrase the transcript?

10 Obviously the transcript is the evidence.

11 THE HEARING OFFICER: The exhibit you are

12 looking at is what number?

13 MR. BOSTWICK: 169B.

14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead, B.


16 A. I had just given Fred $500, and I am

17 indicating to Freddie here, yeah, this guy is

18 going to take some heat from some of these guys.

19 I am talking about Alderman Laurino. I am

20 talking about Bobby now. I am saying he is with

21 Marco and that crew. Now, Fred Roti knows Bobby

22 and he knows Marco and all of these people. They

23 are all interconnected. He is very familiar with

24 these people.



2 Q. That's Marco D'Amico?

3 A. That's right. I am indicating to him,

4 all of those guys go to him for jobs and this guy

5 Bob Abbinanti twice goes out -- he loves it. He

6 is a big tough kid, one of Marco's toughest guys,

7 but he is in the medical and goes out twice and

8 gets into big fights in bars with coppers. The

9 coppers are like crazy over it. They get like

10 crazy and make a big issue out of it, and he

11 still wouldn't go back to work. He claims he has

12 a bad back. He can't drive a tow truck, but he

13 can go out and get into fights with half a dozen

14 groups out in the open. And then after this I go

15 back and I talk to Alderman Laurino and when I

16 talk to him he basically says don't worry about

17 it.

18 MR. THOMAS: What's the date on that?

19 THE WITNESS: June the 5th, 1989.


21 Q. And this is the Bobby Abbinanti that

22 was friendly from Frank Tootsy Caruso that you

23 were discussing?

24 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q. Mr. Cooley, you were involved with

2 organized crime characters for quite a long

3 time. Why did you decide to cooperate with the

4 government in the first place? Were you in

5 trouble?

6 A. No, sir, I wasn't in trouble.

7 Q. Why did you decide to cooperate with

8 the government?

9 A. Well, again, my decision came over a

10 period of time. I had broken away from Johnny, I

11 had moved away from --

12 Q. When you say Johnny?

13 A. Johnny D'Arco and those people.

14 After a series of years. I didn't do

15 a lot of business with a lot of them. Pat Marcy

16 one day gets ahold of me and I have already -- I

17 already have a case. I am representing somebody

18 who is involved in a fight with a police woman

19 here in the city and Pat gets ahold of me and Pat

20 tells me that --

21 Q. This is Pat Marcy?

22 A. Pat Marcy, and tells me he will let me

23 handle the case. And he has informed me that he

24 has fixed the case before Judge Passarella, and I


1 told Pat I didn't want to be involved. There is

2 going to be too much heat, too much pressure. I

3 don't want to be involved. Pat basically

4 indicates that you will, you will handle it, and

5 that's the end of the conversation.

6 Q. What kind of case was it?

7 A. It was a case where a client of mine

8 had gotten into a fight with a police woman and

9 broke her jaw.

10 Q. Did you handle that case?

11 A. Yes, I handled that case. And got

12 very upset. After the case when I went back to

13 see Pat to tell him that this judge is going to

14 be in trouble and there could be some problems,

15 Pat basically said nobody is going to mess with

16 us. Who dare fuck with us are the words that he

17 told me, and basically sent me off back out into

18 the street. He gave me a couple of dollars for

19 handling the case and sent me off into the

20 street.

21 That just got me very, very angry at

22 the whole situation and realizing too that I had

23 been involved with these people for years and

24 doing a lot of these things, I decided at that


1 time that I was going to put a stop to a lot of

2 it.

3 Q. With respect to this proceeding, are

4 you receiving any money other than reimbursement

5 for travel from LIUNA for your testimony?

6 A. No, sir, I am not.

7 Q. Have you been forced by the government

8 to participate in this matter?

9 A. No, sir. They asked me if I would

10 talk with you and I told them I would be happy

11 to.

12 Q. Could you have said no?

13 A. Certainly.

14 Q. Are you doing this because you have

15 any ax to grind against the 26th Street Crew or

16 the Carusos or anybody else in organized crime?

17 A. No, sir. They have never wronged me

18 in any way.

19 Q. Will your testimony increase your

20 concerns about your personal safety?

21 A. Well, I mean, obviously it may, but,

22 again, I am past that stage at this point.

23 Q. Mr. Cooley, if you are receiving

24 nothing for testifying in this matter and it


1 involves an increased personal risk, why are you

2 doing this?

3 A. It is the right thing to do.

4 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't have any further

5 questions.

6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Carmell?

7 MR. CARMELL: Tomorrow.

8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand it is

9 tomorrow. I know that. I understand it.

10 Anything else that you have to add here?

11 My understanding, we might have

12 another person or not?

13 MR. THOMAS: No. Mr. Carmell and I have

14 spoken --

15 MR. BOSTWICK: Perhaps we can go off the

16 record now. We don't need to use transcript

17 pages.

18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We are going to

19 go off the record. Thank you.

20 MR. CARMELL: While we are on the record, we

21 are finished today with witnesses?

22 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.

23 MR. CARMELL: Fine. Thank you.

24 (WHEREUPON, the arbitration was


1 recessed until 9:00 a.m.,

2 July 22, 1997.)

























2 ) SS:


4 We, JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, a Certified

5 Shorthand Reporter, CSR No. 84-2604, and CORRINE

6 T. MARUT, CSR No. 84-1968, of the State of

7 Illinois, do hereby certify that we reported in

8 shorthand the proceedings had at the arbitration

9 aforesaid, and that the foregoing is a true,

10 complete and correct transcript of the

11 proceedings of said arbitration as appears from

12 our stenographic notes so taken and transcribed

13 under our personal direction.

14 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, we do hereunto set

15 our hands at Chicago, Illinois, this 21st day of

16 July, 1997.



19 Certified Shorthand Reporter


21 Certified Shorthand Reporter





1 I N D E X



4 By Mr. Bostwick 805




8 E X H I B I T S


10 Nos. 9 and 10............................ 996

11 Nos. 22 and 23........................... 997

12 No. 31................................... 999

13 Nos. 40 through 43...................... 1003












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