802
1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
3
4 IN RE: )
5 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T
6 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )
7
8
9
10 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had in the
11 above-entitled cause at the offices of the FBI,
12 Chicago Division, 219 South Dearborn Street, 9th
13 Floor, on the 21st day of July, A.D. 1997, at
14 approximately 10:15 a.m.
15
16
17 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
803
1 PRESENT:
2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
5 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
6 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
7 appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;
8 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS, LTD.,
9 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
10 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:
11 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
12 appeared on behalf of the Chicago
13 District Council of Laborers.
14 ALSO PRESENT:
15 MS. LAURIE HARTMAN;
16 MS. COLLEEN RAE MASON, Legal Assistant,
17 Barack, Ferrazzano, Kirschbaum,
18 Perlman & Nagelberg;
19 MR. ERNEST T. LUERA,
20 MR. JIM WAGNER,
21 Federal Bureau of Investigation;
22 MR. JAMES O'ROURKE.
23 REPORTED BY: JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604
24 CORINNE T. MARUT, CSR 84-1968.
804
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Good morning, ladies
2 and gentlemen. This is Peter Vaira. Can the
3 folks on the other end hear me?
4 This is a continuation of the hearing
5 concerning the proposed trusteeship of the
6 Chicago District Council and with me this morning
7 from my office is, who is different than the
8 other day, is Ms. Laurie Hartman, an attorney
9 from my office.
10 Shall we just go around the room just
11 to make sure that the everyone knows who is
12 here.
13 For the International Union.
14 MR. BOSTWICK: Dwight Bostwick from the GEB
15 Attorney's office.
16 MR. THOMAS: Robert Thomas from the GEB
17 Attorney's office.
18 MR. ROBERT COOLEY: Robert Cooley.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Not you yet.
20 Mr. Sherman Carmell representing.
21 MR. CARMELL: O'Rourke is here from the --
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, yes, and
23 Mr. O'Rourke from the IG's office and I believe
24 one FBI -- two FBI personnel, am I correct?
805
1 MR. CARMELL: Yes. Sherman Carmell here for
2 the District Council.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And of course
4 the Court Reporters. Okay.
5 Mr. Bostwick, you may proceed.
6 MR. BOSTWICK: Maybe we can swear in the
7 witness to start off and we'll begin the
8 questions.
9 (WHEREUPON, the witness was
10 sworn.)
11 ROBERT COOLEY,
12 called as a witness herein, having been first
13 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
14 follows:
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
17 Q. Good morning, sir. What is your given
18 name?
19 A. My given name was Robert Cooley. My
20 name has been changed, but that was the name I
21 had for many years here in Chicago.
22 Q. What's your approximate age? What is
23 your exact age?
24 A. Just turned 55.
806
1 Q. Now, why isn't this the name that you
2 currently go by, Robert Cooley?
3 A. I had to leave the city about nine
4 years ago when I -- when it became known that I
5 had been working with the Government for a period
6 of time in wearing a wire against certain
7 organized crime people here in the city.
8 Q. Have you provided testimony for the
9 Government in federal criminal cases?
10 A. Yes, sir, I have.
11 Q. Approximately how many trials?
12 A. I believe we had six or seven trials.
13 Q. What was the general subject matter of
14 that testimony?
15 A. Basically corruption, both in the
16 court system and interconnected between the court
17 system and organized crime here in the city.
18 Q. Let me mention a couple of these cases
19 and get you to clarify them.
20 U.S. v. Lee On Leong, did you testify
21 in that case?
22 A. Yes, sir, I testified briefly in that
23 case, yes, sir.
24 Q. What was that case? What was the
807
1 nature of that case?
2 A. My testimony was in regards to a
3 murder case that I helped fix whereby there were
4 three people that were charged with killing
5 somebody here in Chinatown here in Chicago. I
6 fixed that case before Judge Tom Maloney here.
7 Q. When you say you fixed that case, what
8 do you mean by that?
9 A. I received $100,000 from the Chinese
10 people and split that money with Pat Marcy, Fred
11 Roti and some of the money went to the judge to
12 make certain we had a not guilty verdict on the
13 case.
14 Q. This was related to activities with
15 the 26th Street crew?
16 A. They were inter-involved in that
17 particular -- in the Chinatown -- the incident
18 took place in Chinatown, but there had been
19 illegal gambling in Chinatown for years and the
20 people there were in fact paying to the -- what I
21 call the Chinatown group, the 26th Street group.
22 That was the group they paid the street tax to.
23 Q. U.S. v John D'Arco, Junior, and that's
24 D-'-A-r-c-o, did you testify in that case?
808
1 A. Yes, sir, I did.
2 Q. What was the general nature of that
3 case?
4 A. Johnny D'Arco, Junior was the son of
5 Johnny D'Arco, Senior who was the First Ward
6 committeeman. Johnny was a state senator during
7 the period of time when I was a -- when I was
8 partners with him in a law firm here in Chicago.
9 Q. And what was the general nature of the
10 charges?
11 A. The case that we -- the case I
12 testified in that he was convicted on was fixing
13 a matter in the senate. We arranged to have a
14 bill passed in the senate. He took some money to
15 take care of that bill being passed. He was
16 charged with a second case -- fixing a case here
17 before Judge Scotillo, a civil case that he pled
18 guilty on that. After he was convicted on the
19 first charge, he wound up pleading guilty on the
20 second charge.
21 Q. How about U.S. v Stillo, S-t-i-l-l-o?
22 A. That was Judge Stillo, Adam Stillo and
23 his nephew Joey Stillo. That was a judge that I
24 had fixed many cases with over a period of time.
809
1 He was a judge that was interconnected with the
2 organized crime people here in Chicago. His
3 nephew and him were both convicted of conspiring
4 to fix a case that I was doing for the FBI.
5 Q. United States v Lucious Robbinson?
6 A. Actually -- yes, I did testify in that
7 case. Lucious Robbinson was a clerk over in the
8 26th Street building who was interconnected with
9 a lot of the corrupt judges over there in the
10 building. I had fixed cases years ago with him,
11 through him.
12 Q. What was the general nature of the
13 charges against Mr. Robbinson?
14 A. Mr. Robbinson was charged with taking
15 money to fix cases, I believe.
16 Q. Was Mr. Robbinson convicted?
17 A. Yes, sir, he was.
18 Q. How about U.S. v Tom Maloney and
19 Robert McGee?
20 A. Tom Maloney was a judge, a full
21 circuit judge here in Cook County who was very
22 well connected with organized crime people here
23 in the city. He was a judge that I fixed a -- I
24 fixed the Chinese murder case before. That case
810
1 was before Tom Maloney. He was convicted of
2 fixing I believe two or three other cases too.
3 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Were those cases
4 in which Mr. Cooley testified?
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. Yes. Are these all cases --
7 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. He mentioned the
8 Maloney and Robert McGee case and then when he
9 was finished he said there were other judges or
10 other cases. I am just wondering whether he had
11 testified in those cases. I have no problem. I
12 am just trying to identify.
13 BY THE WITNESS:
14 A. I am sorry. What I meant was he was
15 charged with other additional charges besides
16 just that particular case. He also was involved
17 with me when I fixed the Harry Aleman case. That
18 was a mob enforcer that, in fact, had killed
19 Billy Logan years ago.
20 Judge Maloney at the time was an
21 attorney and he was representing Harry Aleman
22 initially when I took the case over and I fixed
23 it, but he had complete knowledge of that fix, in
24 fact, taking place. He was made -- he was well
811
1 aware of the fix that was going on at that time.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. So at any rate, you testified in U.S.
4 v Maloney, McGee?
5 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: That Maloney case had
7 to do with the bribe that went down on the Harry
8 Aleman case?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that was the case
10 where I think the Supreme Court just ruled even
11 though he was found not guilty, he can be tried
12 again because there was no jeopardy in the case
13 because he was aware of the fact that the fix was
14 in and he was never in jeopardy on that case.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Aleman you mean?
16 THE WITNESS: Harry Aleman, yes, sir.
17 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Vaira, this is where my
18 confusion is. I understand that in U.S. versus
19 Tom Maloney and Robert McGee that that was --
20 that Mr. Cooley testified in relation to what we
21 call the On Leong fix, the one that was the
22 murder case in U.S. versus On Leong.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: The Chinese murder
24 case?
812
1 MR. CARMELL: Right.
2 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
3 MR. CARMELL: I don't know whether he
4 testified with respect to any other cases. I
5 know that he has knowledge and has said about
6 them and that's what I am just trying to clarify.
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Do you think
8 you can clear that up?
9 MR. BOSTWICK: Right.
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. Did you testify in any of these other
12 cases relating to the Aleman fix, for example?
13 A. Yes, sir. I was the main witness in
14 that case, yes, sir.
15 Q. What was the caption of that case, do
16 you recall?
17 A. Well, I testified about that fix both
18 in the Pat Marcy/Fred Roti case and I also
19 testified about that fix in Tom Maloney's case
20 because he was the judge that was involved in
21 that case.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, you should
23 know that when I was the chief of the strike
24 force here, one of the -- I mean, I brought that
813
1 case against Harry Aleman and Butch Petrocelli
2 and one of the acts of racketeering was the act
3 of effecting a bribe. So, I mean, I don't know
4 how direct of a connection it is, but I was the
5 prosecutor on that case. I mean, I think Robert
6 Rose and Gary Shapiro prosecuted that, but I
7 brought it and I had knowledge of it, so just to
8 let you know that.
9 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
10 Q. You mentioned U.S. v Pat Marcy and
11 Fred Roti, Mr. Cooley. Can you tell us a little
12 bit about that case?
13 A. Well, Pat Marcy was the -- his title
14 was First Ward secretary. Actually he was the
15 one that was the main conduit between the
16 organized crime people and the court system and
17 the judicial system and the legal system and the
18 police and the unions here in the city.
19 Q. During what period of time?
20 A. During the entire period of time that
21 I was involved with them. I was involved with
22 them from about 1973 to about -- on an every day
23 basis until about 19 -- about 1980 and then I
24 also was -- I moved away from the city, but I
814
1 still practice here in Cook County and I was
2 still back and forth for the next four or five
3 years with these people.
4 Q. How about Fred Roti?
5 A. Fred Roti was the First Ward alderman
6 during the entire time I was connected with the
7 First Ward. He was -- I was involved with
8 Freddie on -- almost on an every day basis also.
9 With Pat Marcy now, going back to Pat Marcy,
10 after I fixed the Harry Aleman case there was a
11 period of time for over a year when I would have
12 dinner with Pat Marcy and different organized
13 crime people and different union officials. For
14 a period of almost a year, we'd go every Thursday
15 and after dinner we'd go someplace in the city.
16 Q. Approximately what period of time was
17 that?
18 A. I believe the Aleman matters took
19 place in '77. It was from '77 to about middle of
20 '78, maybe '79. There was a long period when I
21 was with -- with those people.
22 Q. What were the nature of the charges
23 against Mr. Marcy and Mr. Roti?
24 A. Pat -- Pat Marcy, Sr. was charged with
815
1 everything from -- he was the one you would pay
2 if you wanted to become a judge. You would pay
3 Pat money. He'd make you a judge.
4 He was also charged with fixing a
5 zoning case. He was charged with fixing a case
6 that I put into the -- into the court system with
7 Judge Scotillo. He was charged with a whole
8 series of other related matters under
9 racketeering.
10 (WHEREUPON, there was a short
11 interruption.)
12 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
13 Q. The case of U.S. vs. David Shields and
14 Pat DeLeo, did you testify in that matter?
15 A. Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q. Can you describe the general nature of
17 that case?
18 A. Well, Pat DeLeo was Johnny D'Arco's
19 brother-in-law. When I first got involved with
20 Patty, Patty was the corporate counsel here in
21 charge of licensing court. I dealt with Patty
22 for a period of many years fixing cases, moving
23 bribes, doing different things here in the city.
24 When I came to work for the
816
1 Government, we put a fictitious case in the -- in
2 the court system and Pat DeLeo was the one who
3 arranged to fix the case with Judge Shields.
4 Q. What was the result in that case?
5 A. We got -- in the case -- in the case
6 we wanted to fix or in the trial?
7 Q. In the trial. I'm sorry. In the
8 trial against David Shields and Pat DeLeo.
9 A. Everybody in all my cases was found
10 guilty. They were found guilty.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me one second.
12 They tell me they need more volume on the other
13 end. Right, sir?
14 MR. LUERA: It's conversational at best.
15 They are going to have to pick up a little bit.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is there anything we
17 should do electronically or give it more force?
18 MR. LUERA: More force.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. That's what the
20 call was about.
21 MR. LUERA: Yes, sir.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. We will
23 try to speak up.
24 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
817
1 Q. I don't believe I asked you what the
2 result in the Pat Marcy and Fred Roti case was.
3 What was the result in that federal criminal
4 trial?
5 A. The result in every case I testified
6 in on my own cases everybody was found guilty in
7 all the cases except Pat Marcy. He died, Pat
8 Marcy. The day I came into court he had a heart
9 attack or something after he saw me and left the
10 court and never came back. They put -- they put
11 his case to the side and we continued with Fred
12 Roti. Fred Roti was convicted on all counts.
13 Q. Did the initial On Leong case result
14 in a conviction to your knowledge?
15 A. The On Leong case, that was a long,
16 extended case and I believe there was a whole
17 series of counts that there was a hung jury on.
18 Some of the people were found guilty
19 on some of the lesser included -- and eventually
20 they worked on pleas on that. But that was the
21 first case I testified in and I believe they had
22 100 and some witnesses and I was just a very,
23 very small part of that.
24 I believe that the people -- I believe
818
1 the one person I testified against in particular,
2 I believe he was found guilty of something. What
3 exact, I don't know. But, again, I'm not
4 positive of that.
5 Q. All of these cases that we've just
6 been speaking of that you testified in, did
7 those -- were those cases brought in the late
8 '80s and early 1990s?
9 A. Yes, sir. I believe it was --
10 actually I believe it was in 1990. I left the
11 city I think in '89. I believe the first case
12 didn't take place until about two years
13 afterwards.
14 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that the
15 testimony that you provided on all of these
16 occasions related in some aspects to organized
17 crime's influence over the City of Chicago?
18 A. Basically every person I was involved
19 with was inter-involved with organized crime. I
20 believe every case that I had they were involved
21 in organized crime.
22 Q. In addition to your testimony in
23 federal criminal trials, have you provided
24 information to law enforcement relating to the
819
1 affairs of organized crime in the City of
2 Chicago?
3 A. Yes, sir, I have.
4 Q. Have you ever consented to having
5 monitored conversations with organized crime
6 figures in Chicago?
7 A. I wore a wire for about three years.
8 Q. On how many occasions, can you
9 approximate the occasions, the number of
10 occasions you wore wires?
11 A. I believe there is over 100 tapes.
12 Again, I'm sure there is over 100 tapes.
13 Q. Did these activities involve a degree
14 of personal risk to you?
15 A. I would imagine, yes, sir.
16 Q. Did your information that you provided
17 as well as the consensually monitored devices
18 result in any plea agreements without the
19 necessity of your testifying in federal criminal
20 trials?
21 A. After convictions in I believe the
22 first six cases, then Marco and Bobby Abbinanti
23 and some of the others all pled guilty.
24 Q. When you say Marco, who do you mean?
820
1 A. Marco D'Amico.
2 Q. There were a number of individuals
3 that pled guilty as a result of information, at
4 least in part as a result of information you
5 provided to law enforcement?
6 A. That's correct.
7 MR. CARMELL: I'm just going to object to
8 the form of the question. That assumes that that
9 was the reason. I believe the witness testified
10 that after he testified certain events happened,
11 certain people pled guilty. And I think that --
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's fair,
13 Mr. Carmell. I think just to ask him after --
14 after he testified there, he was a potential
15 witness in a number of cases and those cases,
16 what happened to those?
17 BY THE WITNESS:
18 A. The last -- the last series of cases
19 that were against specific organized crime
20 persons, I believe all of them pled guilty.
21 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
22 Q. In testifying currently about
23 organized crime figures, do you have a concern
24 regarding the disclosure of the current state of
821
1 your personal appearance?
2 A. Absolutely, yes, sir.
3 Q. Did these factors, concern for your
4 safety and the protection of your appearance,
5 account for the accommodations being made for
6 today?
7 A. That's correct.
8 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, we're
9 here under these circumstances. I don't believe
10 asking this witness why he is here and what he is
11 here -- the FBI and the Government have placed
12 him in the program. He is in the program. We
13 know that.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: And I don't think we
15 need to go any further. He is here. We are in a
16 secure location and I'm the one making that
17 decision.
18 MR. CARMELL: That's correct.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: You don't have to go
20 any further. Although you are making a record.
21 We will take note we are in a secured location.
22 You are in some sort of witness
23 protection program, is that right?
24 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
822
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: And your identity
2 remains confidential.
3 THE WITNESS: It's been changed, yes, sir.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: You would not be happy
5 about it if people found out where you lived.
6 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, no, sir.
7 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
8 Q. Mr. Cooley, have you heard of the term
9 the Chicago Outfit?
10 A. Yes, sir, I have.
11 Q. Could you define that term for us?
12 A. Well, again, it's been called a lot of
13 things. For a long period when I lived here in
14 the city I knew there were a series of people
15 that were interconnected with each other that --
16 that collected money from individuals involved in
17 illegal activities and otherwise, and it was
18 commonly called the Outfit.
19 It was commonly called organized
20 crime. It was commonly called Mafioso. I heard
21 it called by many names.
22 Q. How would you describe the nature of
23 your relationship to the Chicago Outfit from --
24 during the period of the '70s to the early '80s?
823
1 A. There was a long period of time,
2 probably about 10 to 15 years, when I would be
3 out socially with these people most every day. I
4 did things together all the time with them. I
5 was single. I was never married. I was out most
6 every night, and basically my companions for a
7 long period of time were all interconnected with
8 organized crime.
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: During this period of
10 time that you are meeting with the members from
11 the Outfit, how were you employed? What did you
12 do?
13 THE WITNESS: Initially I was a policeman
14 and I was an attorney. I was an attorney here in
15 the city for a period of about 18 years.
16 MR. BOSTWICK: We will get into that
17 extensively next.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. I am
19 trying to get his picture. I know he said he was
20 dealing with the aldermen and the other persons.
21 So, okay.
22 (WHEREUPON, there was a short
23 interruption.)
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let the record
824
1 indicate we are waiting to hear if that is a
2 transmission problem.
3 Okay. Proceed.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. Let me take you back, Mr. Cooley, to
6 your early adulthood. Did you ever work as a
7 police officer?
8 A. Yes, sir, I was a policeman here in
9 the City of Chicago for about seven years when I
10 was going to both college and then law school.
11 Q. What were the approximate dates of
12 that employment?
13 A. I believe from about 1962 to I believe
14 1970.
15 Q. Approximately how old were you during
16 that period of time?
17 A. I was 20 when I joined the Police
18 Department and I was about 20 -- 28 when I
19 graduated law school and left the department.
20 Q. What areas of the City of Chicago did
21 you work as a police officer and what positions
22 did you hold?
23 A. Initially I worked in the south side
24 and south Chicago in the same area where I
825
1 lived. After about four years I asked to
2 transfer down to the Rush Street -- Rush Street
3 area where I moved to.
4 Q. Did you ever take any money as a
5 police officer?
6 A. Yes, sir, I did a few times.
7 Q. Approximately how often?
8 A. Probably about four or five times,
9 maybe a couple more, on traffic stops when people
10 would give me money.
11 Q. What types of things other than
12 traffic stops did you receive money for?
13 A. There was a period of time when I
14 worked in south Chicago where I worked the bar
15 car, the umbrella car, and at the end of the
16 month certain bars would give money to the person
17 that handled the car and I would get some of that
18 money. There were probably about six or seven
19 times when I got my share of that.
20 Q. What is a bar car?
21 A. A bar car was a cover car that didn't
22 answer main radio calls, was there to cover or
23 protect other cars in case there were dangerous
24 calls.
826
1 Part of the duties in south Chicago
2 when you worked the umbrella car or the bar car
3 was to close up the bars at either 2 o'clock or
4 4 o'clock and to chase out the people that didn't
5 want to leave.
6 Q. And what was it that you received
7 money for as a policeman?
8 A. Well, what we did there was we
9 would -- certain bars wanted to make sure
10 somebody was there to get the people out because
11 it would avoid problems with some of the
12 customers and a series of the bars would pay so
13 much a month to the umbrella car, whoever in fact
14 was in charge of it. He would split the money up
15 with the different people that worked the car
16 that month.
17 Q. While you were a policeman, did you
18 meet a man named Roland Borelli?
19 A. Yes, sir, I did.
20 Q. Did you know him by any other names?
21 A. I knew him by Rolly.
22 Q. What were his duties?
23 A. He worked out of East Chicago Avenue
24 also. His job was supposed to watch the traffic
827
1 light below the Tribune building.
2 Q. So he was a policeman as well?
3 A. He was a police officer, yes, sir.
4 Q. Approximately when did you meet?
5 A. I met him when I first -- a short time
6 after I have transferred down to the 18th
7 District. I met him. I met him one Saturday
8 afternoon when we worked -- when we worked one of
9 the cover cars there together.
10 Q. Did you maintain a relationship with
11 him over time?
12 A. From the very beginning we got along
13 very well for quite a period of time.
14 Q. What types of things did you do
15 together?
16 A. We played cards. I started having
17 card games at my house.
18 Q. When you say card games, are these
19 legal card games?
20 A. No, sir. It was poker games, but I am
21 sure they weren't legal. But they were poker
22 games, high stakes poker games.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: What do you mean by
24 that? Guys playing alone and just playing for
828
1 stakes or something else? When you say you are
2 sure they are illegal, what do you mean by that?
3 THE WITNESS: Again, I have seen situations
4 when they arrested some of these old-timers for
5 playing in ten cent poker games. Apparently it's
6 illegal to gamble and it's illegal to play
7 cards.
8 We did it. They were high stakes
9 games. Nobody cut the games, but they were very
10 high games.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: It was a private game,
12 but it was high stakes.
13 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
14 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
15 Q. What you say high stakes, what do you
16 mean?
17 A. We played for -- you could lose 1,000,
18 $2,000 easily in a given night. We played for --
19 we start off playing for like five, ten and the
20 game would get higher.
21 Q. Did Mr. Borelli ever engage in
22 bookmaking activity to your knowledge?
23 A. Yes, sir. He was -- he was
24 inter-involved with Marco and some other people.
829
1 Almost from the start, I was introduced to some
2 of these people and I began playing -- I began
3 betting with bookmakers all throughout the city.
4 Q. When you say Marco, who do you mean?
5 A. Marco D'Amico.
6 Q. Was this bookmaking tied to the
7 Chicago Outfit?
8 A. Yes, sir, it was.
9 Q. What type of betting was -- were you
10 involved in in this bookmaking?
11 A. Baseball, betting baseball,
12 basketball, football, hockey. I bet with him for
13 a while and then after a period of time I would
14 actually move money for him because I -- he took
15 bets from some people and I had five or six
16 bookmakers I was playing with after a period of
17 time and I would sometimes take bets from him,
18 move some of the money and book some of the bets.
19 Q. You would actual occasionally act as a
20 bookmaker as well for Mr. Borelli?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. The substance of this is while you and
23 Mr. Borelli were police officers during this
24 period of time you engaged in bookmaking
830
1 activities that offered a share of their profits
2 to organized crime, is that correct?
3 A. I never actually paid at that time.
4 That was actually prior to the time when they
5 started hitting all the people for street tax.
6 I mean when I booked, I just booked
7 for one person. I moved some of Ricky's money
8 and played with other bookmakers. I never paid
9 the Outfit myself to book. I just did it.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whose line did you
11 use?
12 THE WITNESS: I would make up my own.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whose line did Borelli
14 use?
15 THE WITNESS: Again, Borelli was with the --
16 with the Elmwood Park crew and he would get a
17 line from bookmakers he dealt with. I would get
18 a line from one or two or three people I called.
19 But actually when I gave Ricky the
20 plays, I would make up my own line and give it to
21 him trying to encourage betting the way I liked
22 it. I'd move a line for my own purposes.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you know the name
24 of Borelli's guy who he got the line from?
831
1 THE WITNESS: I am not sure who it was at
2 that point. It was one of their groups. They
3 had many, many bookmakers working with the
4 Elmwood Park Crew.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. Who is Marco D'Amico?
7 A. Marco D'Amico was with the Elmwood
8 Park Crew, worked under Jackie Cerone and under
9 the people that were under Jackie at that time.
10 Q. Did you -- when did you first meet
11 Mr. D'Amico?
12 A. I met him -- a short time after I met
13 Ricky, I met Marco. I was introduced to him and
14 I actually began betting with Marco and then
15 Marco started coming to my house for card games
16 and I started going out socially with him.
17 Q. Did you maintain a relationship, a
18 long-standing relationship with Mr. D'Amico?
19 A. For approximately 10 years.
20 Q. What were the approximate dates of
21 this?
22 A. From about 1970 -- probably about --
23 '68, probably about 1968 until about 1978.
24 Q. How often would you see Mr. D'Amico
832
1 during that period of time?
2 A. Two, three, four times a week.
3 Q. What did you understand Mr. D'Amico to
4 do, what was his job?
5 A. When I first met him, I just thought
6 he was a bookmaker like some of the other
7 bookmakers. After I started practicing law and I
8 started getting business from him, I realized he
9 was a lot more powerful than that. He was
10 actually a street boss for the Elmwood Park Crew
11 and eventually became in charge of a lot of
12 gambling throughout the entire city.
13 MR. CARMELL: Could we break this down? As
14 I understand it from -- he said that for a period
15 of time he only knew him as a bookmaker. Could
16 we break that down as to when and then when he
17 says that he got knowledge of a different status?
18 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
19 Q. You understand the gist of those
20 questions?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did. When I first met
22 Marco again through Ricky I was still a policeman
23 and I was working at 18th. I started betting
24 with him and through him and I started going out
833
1 socially with him. We would go out two, three,
2 four times a week. We would play cards together
3 and we would double date. We would do a lot of
4 things together.
5 After I became an attorney and started
6 practicing, Marco initially brought me a case,
7 brought me a case and after that I began to
8 realize he was a lot better connected with the
9 Outfit than strictly a bookmaker. He was doing a
10 lot more things for them besides just booking.
11 MR. CARMELL: To clarify, so it was sometime
12 after 1970 when you -- we didn't fix when he got
13 his -- fix the date when we got his license.
14 MR. BOSTWICK: His license to practice law?
15 MR. CARMELL: I know he graduated in 1970
16 according to his testimony.
17 THE WITNESS: That's when I took the bar. I
18 passed the bar the first time. Right after I
19 graduated I took the bar and was made a member of
20 the bar.
21 MR. CARMELL: Thank you.
22 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
23 Q. So as of the early 1970s, it is fair
24 to say that you understood Marco D'Amico to be
834
1 tied in with the Chicago Outfit?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. As more than just a bookmaker?
4 A. Well, yeah. Shortly after that I met
5 a lot of other people through Marco that were
6 obviously mafioso connected.
7 Q. Let's talk about another one of those
8 individuals. Robert Abbinanti, did you know an
9 individual named Robert Abbinanti?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Did you know him by any other name?
12 A. Bobby. I knew Bobby for many, many
13 years.
14 Q. When did you first meet him?
15 A. I met him through Marco.
16 Q. Approximately when?
17 A. Probably a year or two after I started
18 practicing, maybe even shortly after I started
19 practicing. As we were out socially, we would be
20 out socially a lot and I would see Bobby. I met
21 Bobby initially.
22 Q. Did you go out with these individuals
23 how often, how many times a week?
24 A. For a long period of time three, four
835
1 times a week I would be out with them.
2 Q. What types of places did you go?
3 A. Different nightclubs, restaurants.
4 Nightclubs mainly. Mainly restaurants and
5 nightclubs.
6 Q. Did you drink with these individuals?
7 A. Yes, sir, I did.
8 Q. Gambling with these individuals?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Was Bobby Abbinanti associated with
11 organized crime?
12 A. Yes, sir, he was.
13 Q. How did you come to know this?
14 A. Well, I represented him on many of his
15 problems and he would get a -- he got arrested
16 many times. I would represent him, but he also
17 approached me after a period of time to do
18 certain things that were very illegal and made it
19 clear what his position was and what he did
20 besides his so-called legit job.
21 MR. CARMELL: Mr. Hearing Officer, I don't
22 know the issue of attorney/client privilege here.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: It is going through my
24 mind too.
836
1 MR. CARMELL: Wait. Just a moment. There
2 is no one here --
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: To raise it.
4 MR. CARMELL: -- to raise it and --
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, I'll raise it.
6 I'll raise it. We ought to be somewhat cautious
7 about that. Before you get that, what did
8 Abbinanti do, what kind of job did he have?
9 THE WITNESS: He drove a -- well, initially
10 when I first met Bobby, he just -- he bounced
11 around. After a period of time he got a job
12 through one of the unions here driving a truck,
13 driving a tow truck for the city. He was
14 supposed to be driving a tow truck for the city.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And you said
16 you represented him on a couple of cases. Were
17 those public matters?
18 THE WITNESS: Again, I understand what you
19 are saying and I understand your concern about
20 the attorney/client privilege and I attempted to
21 make it a point, all of my cases, never to
22 discuss anything from any client that was
23 attorney/client related. What I am talking about
24 Bobby, I am talking about other things that we
837
1 did, you know, during along period of time. I
2 represented Bobby on some misdemeanors.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: If those are public
4 matters, you can tell us what the charge was
5 anyway and the outcome.
6 BY THE WITNESS:
7 A. Again, I would just as soon not even
8 do that for fear that it might be an
9 attorney/client privilege involved. I
10 represented him on some matters, but I also
11 testified and was willing to testify against him
12 on some illegal things that he attempted to do
13 and that was part of the federal case.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Did you testify
15 against him?
16 THE WITNESS: He pled guilty.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, you were prepared
18 to?
19 THE WITNESS: I was prepared to, yes, sir.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Weave your way through
21 this. Go ahead.
22 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
23 Q. Apart from your representation of
24 Mr. Abbinanti and through general conversations
838
1 that were public and with other individuals and
2 that were not related to court cases, did you
3 come to have an understanding of whether
4 Mr. Abbinanti had a role in organized criminal
5 activity in Chicago?
6 A. Oh, yes, he made his role and his
7 position very clear to me.
8 Q. And what was that role and that
9 position?
10 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Again, Mr. Hearing
11 Officer, I know what Mr. Cooley -- what the
12 witness has said, but we don't know whether at
13 the time he was having these conversations
14 Mr. Abbinanti considered him to still be his
15 attorney.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand.
17 MR. CARMELL: This is -- if we can stay away
18 from -- I don't know how we can stay away from
19 it, but it is not really enough to say that it
20 didn't come in the course of a particular
21 representation unless we know a la Hillary
22 Clinton's notes, what the relationship was
23 between and what Mr. Abbinanti believed the
24 relationship was between he and Mr. Cooley at the
839
1 time he had these conversations.
2 MR. BOSTWICK: I can probably take the
3 questions a few steps further and clarify this.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: I presume the
5 relationship between Mr. Cooley and
6 Mr. Abbinanti, Mr. Abbinanti will not be waiving
7 his attorney/client privilege. I pretty much
8 assume that, so what you gentlemen have to do --
9 you are a lawyer, Mr. Cooley, you know --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: -- where the
12 attorney/client privilege arises or could arise.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: And if you two fellows
15 were out on the town having a couple of pops, he
16 still may have considered you his attorney as he
17 gave you these little incidents, so you are well
18 aware of that too, Mr. Bostwick, so proceed here
19 with caution.
20 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
21 Q. Did you ever have discussions with
22 Mr. Abbinanti about criminal activity that he
23 wanted you to get involved in?
24 A. What I could maybe do to -- I
840
1 understand where his question is coming from.
2 What I could maybe do is strictly even then just
3 talk about this particular case that he was
4 indicted on. I mean, obviously there was no
5 attorney/client privilege on this particular
6 matter when he was discussing illegal things with
7 me. All of these conversations were recorded.
8 We have tape recordings of all of these
9 conversations.
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. That's an even better idea. Why don't
12 you do that.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: You are also talking
14 about prospective criminal activity as opposed to
15 past criminal activity.
16 BY THE WITNESS:
17 A. What happened in this particular
18 criminal case while I was wearing a wire and
19 while I was paying Marco D'Amico a street tax on
20 a federal situation, I had indicated to Marco
21 D'Amico --
22 MR. CARMELL: Can we just fix the time
23 period?
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: The time period you
841
1 would have had when you would have had to testify
2 about this?
3 BY THE WITNESS:
4 A. In 1988. In 1988 I indicated to Marco
5 D'Amico that I was doing some booking. I was
6 not, but I indicated that I was, and I indicated
7 that I had about five or six good customers.
8 During this period of time Marco informed me that
9 I had to pay street tax. He indicated that even
10 though I was his friend, he couldn't protect me
11 unless I paid a street tax.
12 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
13 Q. What is street tax?
14 A. A street tax is an amount of money
15 that you paid to organized crime to be allowed to
16 do illegal activities here in the city. He made
17 it clear to me and he made it clear to me on the
18 tape that if, in fact, I didn't pay the street
19 tax, I could suffer some serious consequences.
20 While I was making one of these street
21 tax payments, I mentioned to Marco that I was --
22 that I was playing in a high stakes card game
23 that roamed around. He at that time indicated to
24 me would it be possible for them to rob the card
842
1 game. Initially told him no, that it would be
2 dangerous because we did it in hotels and other
3 places that were relatively secure and he
4 insisted that he had a group or he had a crew
5 that could handle that. We then --
6 Q. When you say handle that, what do you
7 mean?
8 A. That could rob the game. Regardless
9 of how dangerous or how risky it was, they could
10 rob the game if there was enough money involved
11 in the game and I would get a percentage of the
12 proceeds from the game.
13 Q. What happened next?
14 A. Well, the -- with some of the FBI
15 agents we arranged to have a so-called card game
16 up in Wisconsin and Marco had one of his crews he
17 said that would handle the robbery of the card
18 game. So the FBI got a house, they rented a
19 house up in Wisconsin, we arranged to have the
20 game robbed on a given day and after this I was
21 going to leave town because it was going to
22 come -- obviously come out that I had been
23 working with the government for a period of
24 time.
843
1 When the robbery was set to take
2 place, Marco's crew was out of town doing
3 something else. We had already had the place
4 ready to go. Bobby found out that there was
5 going to be a robbery of the game and Bobby was
6 really upset.
7 Q. Bobby who?
8 A. Bobby Abbinanti and Bobby was really
9 upset because I didn't give him a chance to rob
10 the game and he told me that, he said that's what
11 his crew does. He says I am with a crew. That's
12 what we do. That's our thing. We do the
13 robberies and we do the burglaries.
14 Q. Were any of these conversations on
15 tape?
16 A. Yes, sir, this was all recorded. He
17 indicated to me that he was very upset with Marco
18 because during a period of time Marco had made a
19 lot of money off him because they fenced all of
20 their items through Marco and whatever, but Bobby
21 was hurting for money and was real upset because
22 I wouldn't let him rob the game. I initially
23 didn't want him to rob the game because Marco was
24 going to do it and I didn't want to get Bobby
844
1 involved in this particular thing. When Marco's
2 crew couldn't do it, Bobby found out that day.
3 He said, look, let us do it. Ask Marco to give
4 us the okay to do it.
5 Q. Did you follow up with Marco D'Amico?
6 A. Yes, sir. So I am wearing a wire
7 again, I am talking to Marco. Marco gave the
8 okay for Bobby's crew to rob the game.
9 Q. Did that indicate to you what
10 positions in the mob Marco D'Amico had in
11 relation to Bobby Abbinanti?
12 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.
13 What his conclusion is as to the relationship out
14 of this, there is no foundation for it.
15 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, except that he was
16 involved in organized crime and with these
17 individuals for years and I think he can speak to
18 how he fixes in his mind the structure of the
19 various individuals in the mob.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, he has
21 already testified to that. You don't have to ask
22 him his opinion. He testified he had to go ask
23 his permission. Obviously there is something
24 there in the hierarchy of whatever organization
845
1 it is.
2 Your street taxes you are paying, what
3 did you have to pay? You said you had to pay
4 something.
5 THE WITNESS: I was paying Marco $1,000 a
6 month.
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: On what?
8 THE WITNESS: To supposedly be allowed to
9 run a bookmaking operation, a small bookmaking
10 operation.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Nothing to do with the
12 amount that you handled?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Marco told me over and
14 over again that, you know, don't lie to me about
15 the amount you are doing because if you are doing
16 more, it is going to cost you more.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: What did you tell him
18 you were doing?
19 THE WITNESS: I told him I had about six
20 people that I was booking.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. How much money?
22 THE WITNESS: I didn't -- I didn't make it
23 clear. I said -- I said I allowed them to bet
24 between 500 and 1,000 to bet, I believe is what I
846
1 told him I was allowing them to bet. I believe I
2 indicated I had a very limited amount of people.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was your tax?
4 THE WITNESS: $1,000 a month.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. Mr. Cooley, let me take you to
7 another -- well, are you finished with what
8 occurred?
9 A. Well, no. Again, to finish up on that
10 particular thing, that was one of the -- that
11 was -- one of the crimes they were charged with
12 even though they didn't pull off the robbery,
13 what happened was I went up to Wisconsin, Bobby
14 called me when I was up there. He had his crew
15 up there ready to go. We had the house all set.
16 I was up in the house and while they
17 were driving around -- they dropped somebody off
18 by the house to commit the robbery and as they
19 drove around, they saw a policeman sitting a
20 block or two away in the back side of where we
21 were.
22 While they were waiting for him to
23 leave, they finally got tired, Bobby told me they
24 got tired of waiting for him to leave.
847
1 When they they came in to do the
2 robbery, the work car, I believe the air hose or
3 the water hose on the work car blew and by now it
4 was about 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock in the morning and
5 they attempted to get it fixed and when they
6 couldn't, they called off the robbery because
7 things weren't just right at that time.
8 Q. Was this attempted robbery something
9 that was charged in any subsequent indictment?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Against who?
12 A. Against Marco and Bobby, both Marco
13 D'Amico and Bobby Abbinanti.
14 Q. What were the results of that?
15 A. They pled guilty to the attempt.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Cooley, let me fix in time
17 your -- the practice of law here and what you're
18 doing in the '70s. You attended law school
19 during what period?
20 A. I went to night school at Chicago Kent
21 College of Law, which became IIT. I went from --
22 I graduated in 1970 and I was in school almost
23 five years going to night school.
24 Q. Were you also -- did you hold the job
848
1 as a policeman at that time?
2 A. I was a full-time police officer, yes,
3 sir.
4 Q. When did you begin to practice law?
5 A. As soon as I passed the bar. A couple
6 days after I passed the bar I took my first case.
7 Q. So, what year was that?
8 A. 1970.
9 Q. Did there come a time when you worked
10 on a case relating to a bar called Mother's?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. How early on in your career as a
13 lawyer was that?
14 A. Shortly after I started practicing.
15 Q. How did you get involved in this case?
16 A. Marco brought the case to me.
17 Q. And what was the case about?
18 A. There was a group of kids that were
19 probably in their early 20s that were involved in
20 a big fight over at Mother's. It was a bar over
21 on Division Street. They had beaten up the
22 bartenders and kind of wrecked the place.
23 Q. And did you understand from
24 Mr. D'Amico whether they were involved in any
849
1 organized crime?
2 A. Well, the parents. Some of the
3 parents of some of the boys were from the 26th
4 Street group and Marco indicated that their
5 fathers were connected and were very concerned
6 about making sure the boys didn't get a
7 conviction because some of them were in college
8 and they didn't want them to get a conviction.
9 Q. Did you receive any specific
10 instructions from Marco D'Amico about how to
11 handle that case?
12 A. Well, he indicated, find out if I
13 could make certain that I could get them off or
14 don't take the case.
15 Q. Did you take the case?
16 A. Yes, sir. I made -- I checked and
17 found I could take care of the matter and I took
18 the case.
19 Q. How did you take care of the matter?
20 A. Actually I knew the judge involved in
21 the case. He was a good friend of mine and I
22 knew this kid Ronnie who was one of the main
23 bartenders or one of the main bouncers over at
24 Mother's and he was a personal friend of mine and
850
1 I got ahold of him and he indicated they would
2 drop the charges.
3 Q. Did -- is that ultimately what
4 happened to the case?
5 A. Well, again, during that time there
6 was a lot of heat -- heat on some of the matters
7 and even though the people wanted to drop the
8 charges, you couldn't unless the judge would let
9 them do that. And the judge agreed, too, to let
10 them dismiss the charges so all the boys would
11 cut loose.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: But the charges were
13 dropped, though, before you --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, yes, sir.
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Is there any record of that case now
17 to your knowledge?
18 A. Oh, I doubt it. I am certain after we
19 had expunged even the arrests.
20 Q. Why would you do that?
21 A. It was a matter of -- we did it all
22 the time. It was a matter of course. So people
23 would keep their records clean so if they get
24 arrested again, any time they get arrested it
851
1 looks like it's the first time they are
2 arrested. You could always get them supervision
3 the first time on almost any misdemeanor case.
4 Q. Did you have occasion to discuss the
5 handling of this case with Mr. D'Amico after you
6 did it?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Tell us about that conversation.
9 A. Well, he was -- he indicated the
10 people were very pleased with the fact that I was
11 able to handle it because a couple of attorneys
12 that they contacted couldn't assure them of a --
13 they could resolve the matter.
14 Q. What people were happy?
15 A. The parents of the boys. The mob guys
16 from the 26th Street.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are we talking
18 about here, what names?
19 THE WITNESS: Oh, I don't recall who they
20 were at the time. It was some of the -- it was
21 some of the -- this is when I first began getting
22 involved with some of those people and I was just
23 told that the fathers of some of the boys, not
24 even which fathers, were very concerned about
852
1 making sure the kids didn't have any record.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. Did you get -- were you -- did you
4 give Mr. D'Amico any business cards at that time?
5 A. Oh, he asked for some and, again, I
6 started getting a lot of business from not only
7 that area but also from Marco's group and from
8 other groups right after that.
9 Q. So, was this case something that --
10 from this case you received referrals from other
11 mob members and associates?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. CARMELL: Wait. The last part, from
14 other mob members and associates. He got other
15 referrals was his testimony. We haven't gotten
16 who these people are.
17 MR. BOSTWICK: Let's ask.
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A. It was a very short time after this
20 that I began getting a lot of gambling cases, a
21 lot of other cases from all around the city, from
22 not just the 26th Street group, from Cicero, from
23 Elmwood Park, from the Rush Street area. I
24 started getting a lot of business from all around
853
1 the city.
2 Q. Did you get referrals from the 26th
3 Street or Chinatown area?
4 A. Yes, sir, I did.
5 Q. Over a period of time?
6 A. There was a long period of time after
7 this where Marco would actually bring me all the
8 cases and like especially the gambling cases I
9 would charge them $1,000 flat fee for every
10 gambling case he brought me and he would charge
11 them whatever he charged them.
12 There was a long period of time after
13 that when all my -- a lot of my business came
14 directly through Marco.
15 Q. Approximately what period of time was
16 this?
17 A. This lasted for maybe a year or two.
18 Q. What is the Chinatown crew?
19 A. The Chinatown -- I call them the
20 Chinatown crew, but that's the group that --
21 that's the group that is in charge of the area
22 around 26th Street over there on the east side of
23 the city, southeast side of the city.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are these folks
854
1 who are sending you the business? I know Marco
2 brings it in. But who are the persons on the
3 other end? Who are the people who are supposedly
4 sending you business?
5 THE WITNESS: Bookmakers, different
6 bookmakers, different people that are paying.
7 I learned -- I learned again, and
8 there was no attorney-client privilege in a lot
9 of these things with Marco because --
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Marco is not the
11 client.
12 THE WITNESS: Right. Marco was not the
13 client.
14 But what Marco was doing was Marco
15 would -- a lot of people had the impression that
16 I was connected, I was part of their basic family
17 or their operation and a lot of people after a
18 period of time began to ask me can we come to you
19 direct without going through Marco because
20 apparently he was charging a lot more money than
21 I was getting on these particular cases.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you have an idea,
23 though, when you say you were getting referrals,
24 who were the individuals who were referring them
855
1 to Marco? You said they were referrals. We are
2 not talking about the individual Defendants.
3 THE WITNESS: Right.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you know the
5 identity of somebody, let's say, from the
6 Chinatown group?
7 THE WITNESS: From this group I knew who it
8 was. Angelo LaPietra was the main boss during
9 that time and probably was until the time he went
10 to -- he went away.
11 But I also became very familiar and
12 very friendly, in fact, I started associating for
13 a period of about four or five years at least and
14 spending a lot of my time over there in the 26th
15 Street area. That's where I used to go to a
16 place called the Redwood and I hung in there for
17 years.
18 I used to go to -- I eventually
19 belonged to their social club. I joined up with
20 their social club. I used to go to the dice game
21 up there.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: The question I am
23 asking, you are practicing and Marco keeps
24 bringing these cases. Who is it that is
856
1 referring them over to you, Angelo Dipetri?
2 THE WITNESS: Again, it gets a little
3 more -- even more confusing after that because
4 after I was practicing about actually about five
5 years or six years I formed a partnership.
6 Sr. -- John D'Arco --
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: All I was trying to do
8 was clean up the record. You put your own
9 evidence on. I was going to get the identity of
10 the referrals.
11 MR. BOSTWICK: We will go to each one of
12 these things he is talking about. We will get to
13 them in seriatim and it becomes clear.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Let me ask you about what you left
17 off. Did there come a time when you joined
18 another attorney in practice?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Who was that attorney?
21 A. John D'Arco, Sr. and Pat DeLeo.
22 Q. Who were they and how did that come
23 about?
24 A. John D'Arco, Jr., he may have been a
857
1 State Rep but shortly after there became a State
2 Senator. He was actually one of the -- one of
3 the top Senators and most powerful Senators in
4 Springfield.
5 His brother-in-law, Pat DeLeo, was a
6 corporation counsel, but he was in charge of the
7 license court here in Chicago.
8 Sr., John D'Arco, Sr., who was the
9 First Ward committeeman and one of the main
10 contacts between organized crime and the city and
11 the unions and whatever, one day stopped me in
12 Counselor's.
13 I had just finished a case before
14 Judge Scotillo and he asked if I was interested
15 in teaching his son Johnny how to practice law.
16 And I told him that -- and I realized who he was
17 and how important and powerful these people were
18 and I said, well, rather than teach him, why
19 don't we form like a partnership where I do all
20 the business and we cut up whatever the fees
21 are.
22 And that was how it first began.
23 Rather than just teach him how to practice, I
24 thought I am better cutting myself in for a piece
858
1 of the whole pie.
2 Q. How long did you have this
3 arrangement, this partnership with Mr. D'Arco?
4 A. Over three years, a little over three
5 years.
6 Q. What period of time was that?
7 A. From about 1976 to probably about
8 close to 1980.
9 Q. Did you continue to get Outfit
10 business while you practiced together?
11 A. I am --
12 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tell us what kind of
14 business it is. Who are the individuals? What
15 was the name of your partnership?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, actually they were
17 Kugler, DeLeo and D'Arco. I was my own. I had
18 my own name and they opened their office up right
19 next to my office at 100 North LaSalle. So, we
20 were next door to each other.
21 The reason we did that is because I
22 represented a lot of the bad guys, a lot of the
23 mob and mob-connected guys. Johnny was a
24 Senator. His partner initially Patty was a
859
1 corporation counsel. So, none of the bad guys
2 were supposed to be seen around these particular
3 people.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: So, you didn't have a
5 partnership but you shared space. But you
6 traded --
7 THE WITNESS: No, we didn't even share
8 space.
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: You traded business.
10 THE WITNESS: They had their office, I had
11 mine. The initial partnership, we called it a
12 partnership. Nothing was in writing. It was all
13 strictly our arrangement.
14 I was supposed to handle all the
15 criminal work that came in, any of the -- even
16 the ward business that came in to them, because
17 we got all the First Ward business, any of the
18 business that came in on a criminal basis would
19 be referred to me.
20 The people would be sent over to my
21 office because we didn't want the bad guys going
22 into their office and being seen going in their
23 office. I was to handle all the business and we
24 would split the fees 50/50. I would get 50
860
1 percent, the other half would go to their firm.
2 They had their own firm, Kugler, DeLeo and
3 D'Arco.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's sort of a
5 referral fee.
6 THE WITNESS: It was -- it was a very loose
7 arrangement.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right, okay.
9 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
10 Q. And kept that way purposely?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Let me ask you during this period of
13 time, which is the late '70s, did you continue to
14 gamble?
15 A. Oh, yes, sir.
16 Q. How often did you gamble?
17 A. I gambled most every day of my life
18 during that period.
19 Q. Also in the '80s?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. How much money did you gamble a week?
22 A. Oh, many weeks I would -- I would move
23 over a million dollars back and forth through
24 different bookmakers.
861
1 Q. How is it possible for somebody to
2 move over a million dollars through different
3 bookmakers in the course of a week?
4 A. Very easy because I dealt with
5 anywhere from four or five to ten bookmakers at a
6 given time. I had limits where I could bet with
7 a lot of them minimum a thousand, some of them up
8 to 10,000 a game. On weekends I jacked a lot of
9 games.
10 Q. What does that mean?
11 A. I played for the middle on a lot of
12 games. Both baseball where you have different
13 odds, where you play for the middle, where you
14 don't care. If an underdog wins, you can make
15 money either way.
16 Let's say one bookmaker has a game
17 140, another bookmaker has a game 170. You take
18 one side laying the 140 and you take the other
19 side getting plus 160 on a game. So if an
20 underdog wins, you will make some money on what
21 they call the vig on part of the juice.
22 But with football and with basketball,
23 I played for the middle with the numbers. Let's
24 say you have got a team -- let's say you have got
862
1 the Bulls maybe are playing, let's say, Phoenix.
2 Maybe with one bookmaker you have got
3 the line -- let's just come up with the line the
4 number 4. The Bulls are a four point favorite.
5 A different bookmaker may have got the line 6
6 points where the Bulls are a six point favorite.
7 I can bet through four or five
8 bookmakers between 15, 20, 30,000 on one team
9 laying the four points. With the other
10 bookmakers I am taking six points for maybe the
11 same amount of money, 40 or 50,000, 30,000,
12 depending on how many makers I had with different
13 numbers.
14 If the Bulls win by four points, I
15 break even on all my bets with the one side and I
16 collect on all my bets from the other side. So,
17 it's a win-win situation for me. If it falls on
18 five points, the same way. If it falls on six
19 points, the same way.
20 If it falls on any of the numbers not
21 between 4 and 6, if it falls on 3 or 7 or
22 anything else, I wind up losing just 10 percent
23 of my bet. I lose to the one bookmaker whatever
24 the amounts are and I collect back and I pay the
863
1 others the same amount plus 10 percent, which is
2 the vig.
3 So, I was always looking for a lot of
4 bookmakers I could play with because I loved
5 looking for numbers and playing where I -- you
6 get a 20 to 1 payoff. If a game falls in the
7 middle your payoff is 20 to 1 because you will
8 win -- let's say you are betting $1,000. If you
9 are betting 1,000 on one team and you are betting
10 a thousand dollars on the opposite team, if it
11 doesn't fall in the number, you lose 1,100 to one
12 bookmaker and you win 1,000 to another. Your
13 total loss is $1,000. If you --
14 Q. Or $100?
15 A. Your total loss --
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: 100 bucks.
17 BY THE WITNESS:
18 A. Your total loss is ten dollars. If
19 the game falls on 5, if the numbers are 4 and 6,
20 I collect 1,000 from one bookmaker -- I collect
21 from the bookmaker where I am laying 4 and I
22 collect from the other bookmaker where I am
23 getting 6. If it falls on 5, I collect both. So
24 I win $2,000. The most I have at risk is $100.
864
1 MR. CARMELL: From the expressions
2 apparently everybody but me was a virgin in
3 this. I understand exactly.
4 As an aside, I used to have a friend
5 who decided that he would be a good fellow and
6 work for his father on Saturdays and the reason
7 he did it was because at that time his father's
8 plant had a switchboard and he could plug in to
9 all of the bookies that he knew and at that time
10 we called it then the middle.
11 THE WITNESS: It's called middling.
12 MR. CARMELL: Get the middle end up that
13 way.
14 So I hope that's been educational to
15 all the rest of you.
16 BY THE WITNESS:
17 A. This is why I needed a lot of
18 bookmakers to bet with and a lot of bookmakers
19 liked my action because I give them plenty of
20 action. I give them a lot of action.
21 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
22 Q. For purposes of our hearing, you're
23 right, I don't think that any of us are going to
24 go right out and try to replicate that.
865
1 For purposes of our hearing the point
2 is that you met and dealt with a number of
3 bookmakers in the area, in the Chicago area, over
4 an extended period of time?
5 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
6 Q. Did you understand that all those
7 bookmakers had to pay street tax?
8 A. Yes, sir, everybody paid street tax.
9 Q. Were you ever a bookmaker yourself?
10 A. Well, when I was -- initially when I
11 was a policeman I only handled one person. I
12 didn't pay at that time.
13 But when I began working for the
14 Government, when I began wearing a wire, I let
15 Marco know that I had a small operation and they
16 told me -- I was whistled in and they told me I
17 had to start paying street tax.
18 Q. What are juice loans?
19 A. Juice loans are money you get from,
20 again, organized crime people as far as I know
21 and where you pay large rates of interest to
22 receive money with no collateral.
23 Q. Did you ever take juice loans to cover
24 some of these -- this betting that you are
866
1 describing?
2 A. Yes, sir. There were probably four or
3 five times over a period of time when I would
4 need immediate cash to pay off a few bookmakers
5 so I could keep playing with them or play with
6 others.
7 Q. Some of the individuals you placed
8 bets with would have been Marco D'Amico and Bobby
9 Abbinanti?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Did you ever meet an individual named
12 Frank Caruso?
13 A. I actually had seen all three -- there
14 were three Carusos that I knew from the 26th
15 Street area. I have known all three of them -- I
16 have known and seen all three of them for a long
17 period of time.
18 Q. Okay. Why don't we do it this way.
19 We have got a couple of exhibit books here with
20 photos. Can I ask you to take a look at these
21 photographs?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Who are those individuals? The
24 numbers of the exhibits are Exhibit 6G, 6F and
867
1 6E.
2 A. Well, 6F is the -- I always thought
3 that these three were brothers. I just had that
4 impression, that they were all brothers. I
5 recently have found out that they are not
6 brothers, but, again, I always had the impression
7 that all three of them were brothers. I would
8 see them a lot in the 26th Street area, around
9 Counselor's Row and a lot of people I dealt with
10 were with them and dealt with the same group.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Counselor's Row was a
12 restaurant, right?
13 THE WITNESS: That's where Pat Marcy held
14 court, Counselor's Row.
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Let's get into one at a time here.
17 6F, did you ever meet that individual?
18 A. Yes, sir, I have.
19 Q. Who did you meet him through?
20 A. I had seen him many times even before
21 that, but Bobby Abbinanti was the first person
22 that I was introduced to him through.
23 Q. Did Mr. Abbinanti refer to him by any
24 nickname?
868
1 A. I believe Tootsy.
2 Q. How many -- where did you see this
3 individual?
4 A. Initially?
5 Q. What places?
6 A. He was one of the group that used to
7 socialize with a group I socialized with, with
8 Richie, with Butchie, with --
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: It would help if you
10 give us the last name of those persons.
11 BY THE WITNESS:
12 A. I am sorry. Well, Richie was Richie
13 "The Cat" we called him. I believe Cat is a --
14 Richie was one of the group, one of the 26th
15 Street Crew that used to come all of the time
16 down to Rush Street. I lived for a long period
17 of time right on Rush Street. I lived at
18 Newberry Plaza right at the middle of Rush
19 Street, but this is the one that would come at
20 times and socialize with us there.
21 Q. When you say this one, you mean 6F,
22 the individual in 6F?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: What do you know him
869
1 as?
2 THE WITNESS: Bobby introduced him to me the
3 first time as Tootsy and Bobby many times
4 referred to him. This is the one that he
5 referred to by name.