1024
1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
3
4 IN RE: )
5 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T
6 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )
7
8
9
10 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had in the
11 above-entitled cause at the offices of the FBI,
12 Chicago Division, 219 South Dearborn Street, 9th
13 Floor, on the 22nd day of July, A.D. 1997, at
14 approximately 9:45 a.m.
15
16
17 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
1025
1 PRESENT:
2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
5 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
6 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
7 appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;
8 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS, LTD.,
9 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
10 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:
11 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
12 appeared on behalf of the Chicago
13 District Council of Laborers.
14 ALSO PRESENT:
15 MS. LAURIE HARTMAN;
16 MR. ERNEST T. LUERA,
17 MR. JIM WAGNER,
18 Federal Bureau of Investigation;
19 MR. JAMES O'ROURKE;
20 MS. COLLEEN RAE MASON, Legal Assistant,
21 Barack, Ferrazzano, Kirschbaum,
22 Perlman & Nagelberg.
23 REPORTED BY: JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604
24 DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194
1026
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and gentlemen,
2 let's go on the record.
3 We are going to continue the hearing
4 and we presume you can hear us over at the
5 Midland Hotel, and we apologize. We had decided
6 to start this at nine o'clock and somehow or
7 other we managed to keep it a secret, so now we
8 are ready to proceed.
9 Sherman Carmell, you are about to
10 examine the witness. And, sir, you are still
11 under oath.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 ROBERT COOLEY,
14 called as a witness herein, having been
15 previously duly sworn and having testified, was
16 examined and testified further as follows:
17 CROSS EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. CARMELL:
19 Q. When you began your career as a
20 Chicago police officer, what ward did you live
21 in?
22 A. It was the 10th Ward. No. I am
23 sorry. I am not sure what my ward was. I worked
24 in the 10th Ward. I worked out there in South
1027
1 Chicago. It was the 10th Ward. My ward, I am
2 not certain which ward mine was.
3 Q. Your father was a police officer?
4 A. Yes, sir, he was.
5 Q. Your grandfather was a police officer?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. And how many brothers and sisters do
8 you have?
9 A. I have six brothers and two sisters.
10 Q. And how many of your brothers were or
11 are police officers?
12 A. Four of them were policemen.
13 Q. Now, during the time that you were a
14 police officer and an attorney, you were familiar
15 with the term patronage system, weren't you?
16 A. Yes, sir, I was.
17 Q. And the city for purposes -- political
18 purposes, the democratic party was divided into
19 wards, is that correct?
20 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
21 Q. The ward had a committeeman and had an
22 alderman, is that right?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And jobs with the City of Chicago came
1028
1 from sponsorship through a ward person, be it the
2 ward committeeman or the alderman, isn't that
3 your understanding?
4 A. That for the most part was the way it
5 seemed to work, yes, sir.
6 Q. Were you familiar at all with either
7 the operation of the office at the 10th Ward or
8 the 11th Ward as far as being open at night for
9 citizens of the ward to come to see the alderman?
10 A. Well, I believe I knew Alderman
11 Vrdolyak was out there at that time and they were
12 open quite often different hours of the day and
13 night. He worked late quite often.
14 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions.
15 If you don't know these, just tell me because
16 many of these are just based on the fact I was
17 born and raised in the City of Chicago.
18 But citizens of a ward who wanted
19 something, be it better garbage pickup or help on
20 traffic tickets, would come to the alderman,
21 either in person or by phone, was that your
22 understanding?
23 A. I believe that was and probably still
24 is being done.
1029
1 Q. And these are ordinary citizens in
2 many cases?
3 A. In a lot of cases, yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, the neighborhood that you have
5 referred to and has been referred to as 26th
6 Street, Chinatown, that was made up of two wards,
7 wasn't it, the 1st ward and the 11th ward?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. Part of that
9 area was the 1st ward and part of it was the 11th
10 ward.
11 Q. In your direct testimony, you referred
12 to the fact that the Mayor of Chicago lived in
13 that area, and he lived in the 11th ward, isn't
14 that right?
15 A. I believe that's true, yes, sir.
16 Q. An area that's generally called, if
17 you know, called Bridgeport?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And Bridgeport, during the time that
20 you knew it, was primarily people of Irish
21 descent, is that a fair statement?
22 A. A lot of Irish there, yes, sir.
23 Q. And the 1st ward had a number, or a
24 substantial number of people of Italian descent,
1030
1 is that correct?
2 A. In two of the sections of the 1st
3 ward, yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, you said that ordinary citizens
5 in the 26th Street area looked up to people who
6 you identified as organized crime figures. Do
7 you remember that?
8 A. Yes, sir, I did.
9 Q. And these people, or some of these
10 people, might not have known that the persons
11 that they looked up to were organized crime
12 figures, is that a fair statement?
13 A. Well, I think most of the leaders of
14 the group, again, I would have to personally say
15 that I would think most of the people there
16 realized who they were and what they were. I'm
17 certain that they did.
18 Q. And knowing that, these ordinary
19 citizens would come up and speak to these
20 persons?
21 A. Sometime -- well, you know, a lot of
22 times, they would and others wouldn't. Others
23 would just sit there and watch them go by. I
24 mean, again, it's a very -- it's an interesting
1031
1 neighborhood where everything is in like little
2 sections. I mean, there were certain people that
3 I would see out there that would never come out
4 and talk with anybody. They would sit and watch
5 us as we'd come back and forth. Certain ones
6 would never come into the restaurants or the
7 places where I would go.
8 Q. These various sections were pretty
9 close knit, wouldn't you say?
10 A. Oh, there's no question about that.
11 Q. And there were people who grew up in
12 the section, whose fathers were from the section,
13 when I say fathers, parents were from the
14 section, grandparents were from the section and
15 the children were raised in the section, isn't
16 that a fair statement?
17 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
18 Q. Now, when you first met -- when did
19 you first meet Marco D'Amico?
20 A. I met him when I was a police officer
21 working out of the 18th District. That was about
22 '65, '66.
23 Q. And at that time, you knew Marco
24 D'Amico as a gambler?
1032
1 A. When I first met him, yes, sir, he was
2 a person I was introduced to and I made bets
3 through him initially through Ricky Borelli.
4 Q. So he was a bookmaker?
5 A. I knew him to be a bookmaker, yes,
6 sir.
7 Q. When did you come to know that Marco
8 D'Amico, as far as you were concerned, was more
9 than just a bookmaker?
10 A. When I started practicing law and he
11 began referring me business and bringing me
12 business from certain families in the Chicago
13 area.
14 Q. So it was sometime after 1970?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So --
17 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification of
18 what he means by families? He said families.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. So between 19 --
21 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on
22 that point?
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm missing what
24 you're saying.
1033
1 MR. BOSTWICK: He said families. He said
2 certain families and I was wondering if we could
3 get a clarification before Mr. Carmell comes on
4 as to what he means by certain families.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: I guess I sort of
6 missed it. I got his answer that he started
7 sending him business.
8 MR. BOSTWICK: Business from certain
9 families.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I use that term in
11 relation to certain -- during the time that I
12 started practicing, I began to realize that these
13 organized crime, I call them families at times, I
14 call them groups --
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Groups.
16 THE WITNESS: -- I call them --
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: You're not just
18 referring to, like, the Murphy family or the
19 Jones family?
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I'm talking
21 about --
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Organizations is what
23 you're talking about?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, yes, sir.
1034
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
2 BY MR. CARMELL:
3 Q. So between approximately 1960 and
4 sometime after 1970, you know Marco D'Amico only
5 as a bookmaker and gambler, is that right?
6 A. Well, again, I knew he was a bit more
7 as I got to know him because as I gambled and as
8 I was introduced to different major bookmakers,
9 and we had a major card game at my house, and
10 then there was one time when a card cheat got
11 into the card game and we found out about it and
12 I realized probably at that time that he was more
13 than just a bookmaker because they straightened
14 this person out.
15 Q. But it wasn't until you knew Marco
16 D'Amico for a number of years and knew him
17 personally that you heard from Marco D'Amico that
18 he was anything other than a bookmaker or a
19 gambler, isn't that true?
20 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
21 Q. Well, let me try it another way. How
22 did you -- did you ever learn from Marco D'Amico
23 directly that he was other than a gambler and a
24 bookmaker?
1035
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And that arose because of the long
3 personal relationship that you and he had had
4 from the 1960s on, isn't that correct?
5 A. Well, from the late '60s on, yes, sir.
6 Q. What I'm getting at, when you first
7 met Marco D'Amico, he didn't raise his hand and
8 announce to you, I want to tell you that I'm a
9 street crew boss, did he?
10 A. Well, not as such, but, again, would
11 drop hints and would -- he also took me over,
12 after a short time over to the social club he
13 belonged to and just being in there, you could
14 see that certain things were going on and it was
15 more than just a group of people meeting socially
16 to play cards and whatever.
17 Q. And from that, you surmised that he
18 had a position that was different than being just
19 a bookmaker or a gambler, is that right?
20 A. I saw from his associations and from
21 the other people that were coming and the people
22 he was meeting with that he was more than just
23 merely a bookmaker, yes, sir.
24 Q. While a police officer between 1962
1036
1 and 1970, did you place bets with Marco D'Amico?
2 A. Yes, sir, towards the end of my career
3 in the police department, yes, sir, I did.
4 Q. Did you receive any bribes from Marco
5 D'Amico?
6 A. No, sir, not when I was a police
7 officer, no, sir.
8 Q. You began practicing law in 1970. Can
9 you tell me where your first office was?
10 A. When I first began, I was renting
11 space from Allan Ackerman at 100 North LaSalle.
12 Q. Allan Ackerman is a well-known state
13 and federal criminal attorney in this area, is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes, sir, he is.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, he is. Yes, he
17 is. I attest to that. I've seen him in action
18 many times.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. Did you sit in on any of the card
21 games in Allan Ackerman's office during that
22 time?
23 A. Yes, sir, I did.
24 Q. And how long did you spend in that
1037
1 office?
2 A. I was with Alan probably for a year,
3 year and a half, maybe. Then I opened my own --
4 then I believe I went and I started renting
5 space, I believe, with Katz, Hirsch & Weiss in
6 the same building and then I got my own office in
7 the same building.
8 Q. How long were you with the Katz --
9 renting space in the Katz firm?
10 A. Probably maybe about a year, year and
11 a half.
12 Q. What was your practice when you began?
13 A. Basically traffic work, criminal
14 work.
15 Q. Had you begun at that time to fix
16 cases?
17 A. From the very beginning, yes, sir, I
18 did.
19 Q. And in the very beginning, the cases
20 that you fixed, did they all come from persons
21 that you would describe as being members of
22 organized crime?
23 A. Well, not all, but a lot of them, a
24 lot of my early business was gambling, other
1038
1 cases, in fact, from organized crime people, yes,
2 sir.
3 Q. But you have cases from let's just
4 call them ordinary citizens -- I don't mean by
5 that that they may be ordinary, but I am trying
6 to distinguish between those that you have
7 referred to as organized crime. You had other
8 than organized crime persons' cases, is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes, sir. I never advertised when I
11 first started. All of my business came from
12 associations or from friends or friends of
13 friends. I would get referrals from some
14 policemen that I knew in different areas, I would
15 get referrals from people that just met me.
16 Again, a majority of my business was probably
17 from Marco and people such as himself. That's
18 where the majority of my business came from.
19 Q. The non-majority business, did you fix
20 those cases also?
21 A. During that time, a lot of matters --
22 I would make sure I won. I won most of my cases
23 in the beginning and if I couldn't win it on the
24 up and up, I would certainly pay if I had to.
1039
1 Q. You testified that after cases were
2 won, the records would be expunged. Do you
3 remember that?
4 A. A lot of times, yes, sir, for a lot of
5 my clients. They would want that done.
6 Q. And that was a state statute that
7 permitted expungement, is that correct?
8 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
9 Q. So there was nothing devious about
10 getting a case expunged, is that correct? You
11 could file a petition under the state statute?
12 A. You could do that, but, again, we used
13 it for a different purpose. We used it so people
14 could have a clean record and get supervision for
15 a second or third or fourth time. In that sense
16 it was probably devious. During that time you
17 were only allowed to get supervision one time.
18 In other words, if you get arrested and charged
19 with something and you are found not guilty, you
20 were entitled to file a petition and have the
21 entire record expunged, but you were not supposed
22 to get it a second time. We would get somebody
23 supervision sometimes on a case and then at the
24 end of the period sometimes we would bribe the
1040
1 judge to make it supervision, terminate it in
2 stanter. He was given supervision for one day
3 and then it was -- then you could go and get it
4 expunged afterwards. Then if he gets arrested a
5 month or two or three months later, it would show
6 it as his first arrest and you could get him
7 supervision all over again.
8 Q. Staying with the expungement statute
9 for a moment again, as you understood it, anybody
10 who was convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony
11 could have the arrest and all of the materials
12 expunged according to statute by a petition filed
13 with the court, is that correct?
14 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
15 Q. And if a person had been placed on
16 supervision, two years after the supervision had
17 ended, the individual could then petition for
18 expungement under the statute, isn't that
19 correct?
20 A. That's the way the statute read, but
21 we worked around that.
22 Q. But you testified that it was expunged
23 and the expungement came from a court order, is
24 that right?
1041
1 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
2 Q. And in some cases you manipulated the
3 sentence, supervision or whatever it may be, in
4 order to make the person eligible under the
5 statute for expungement, isn't that correct?
6 A. Well, yes, and sometimes we just
7 forgot about the statute and the judges sometimes
8 would just forget about the statute and would
9 just expunge it as a matter of course.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: The state's attorney
11 has a right to object to that, does he not?
12 THE WITNESS: Again, in the early days the
13 system was very interesting and they just
14 wouldn't. They just would let it go by and they
15 would say nothing about it.
16 MR. CARMELL: The statute is mandatory. The
17 statute is mandatory and it is mandatory for --
18 it was changed in the '70s, 1971 to make it apply
19 to cases before 1971 and it is a state statute.
20 I can give you the reference if you want it.
21 BY MR. CARMELL:
22 Q. Now, Mother's -- the Mother's bar,
23 where was that located?
24 A. It was on Division Street and it was
1042
1 between Dearborn, Dearborn and State on the north
2 side of the street, on Division Street.
3 Q. And during what period of time did you
4 frequent Mother's with the group that you
5 testified about?
6 A. I started going there when I was in
7 law school and I was a policeman and I was in law
8 school during that time and I lived a short
9 distance from there. I lived only about a half a
10 mile from there.
11 Q. It watts a very popular bar with young
12 people during that period of time, wasn't it?
13 A. Yes, sir, it was.
14 Q. It was what was called or may be
15 called a happening place, it was a place to be if
16 you were young and on the street?
17 A. It was a very interesting place, yes,
18 sir.
19 Q. And when you went to Mother's during
20 the time that you were in law school, where
21 would -- what part of the bar would you go to?
22 A. Well, as I remember, it was a
23 downstairs section and that's where all of the
24 real activity was and I would hang there, I would
1043
1 hang in Butch McGuire's, I would hang in
2 different bars up and down the street there.
3 Those were my spots most every day.
4 Q. When did you get to the end of the bar
5 at Mother's that you described in your direct
6 testimony?
7 A. When did I get to the end of the bar?
8 Q. Yes. When did they let you in to that
9 end?
10 A. I don't understand.
11 Q. Well, as I understood it, there was a
12 part of the bar that you talked about that was
13 reserved for a group of people?
14 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection. I think he was
15 talking about another bar.
16 BY THE WITNESS:
17 A. I wasn't talking about at Mother's. I
18 was talking about later on.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. Faces?
21 A. Later on in Faces.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Faces, Faces.
23 BY THE WITNESS:
24 A. And at Ditka's.
1044
1 BY MR. CARMELL:
2 Q. And Mother's was the situation -- I am
3 sorry. Mother's was the situation where the --
4 there had been a fight and three young persons
5 had been charged with beating up a bartender, is
6 that right?
7 A. Oh, there were a lot more than three.
8 As I remember, there were a whole bunch of them,
9 but there were three in particular that the
10 parents were concerned about.
11 Q. Let's talk about Faces then for a
12 minute because I confused the name. That also
13 was a happening place, wasn't it?
14 A. That was a nightclub, one of the most
15 popular nightclubs probably in the city.
16 Q. And there were a lot of legitimate
17 people who went there, weren't there?
18 A. Oh, yes, sir.
19 Q. And did you go there while you were a
20 police officer?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. When did you begin going there?
23 A. When I got involved with these people,
24 when I began hanging with them because it was a
1045
1 private club and you were supposed to pay a
2 membership and I never paid a membership because
3 I was with them. They just let me come in.
4 Q. It was very popular and it was usually
5 very crowded, isn't that correct?
6 A. Most of the time, yes, sir.
7 Q. And you had an area at the bar where
8 you would spend your time with this group, is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And the group could consist of
12 anywhere from 6 to 10 to 15 or 20 people, is that
13 right?
14 A. There was usually a good size crowd
15 around them, yes, sir.
16 Q. And not all of the people were there
17 always at the same time, is that right?
18 A. Well, there were three or four that
19 were -- just about every day were there. I mean,
20 others were there and were not there, but there
21 were Butchie -- at one time Butchie -- I am
22 sorry, not Butchie, but Larry, Richie, Larry and
23 Richie.
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on
1046
1 the last names if we are going to go through
2 this.
3 BY THE WITNESS:
4 A. Well, Larry Pusiteri, I think Richie
5 Catazone and a couple of others were always
6 there. When I say always, I mean almost always
7 on Wednesday and Friday nights. They would be
8 there sometimes other nights during the week too,
9 but others were sometimes there and were
10 sometimes not there and people would come and
11 people would go.
12 BY MR. CARMELL:
13 Q. And I believe you mentioned something
14 about that the cute girls in the place would come
15 to that area of the bar, is that right?
16 A. People were -- certain cute females
17 were invited, not too many strange males were
18 invited. They didn't like the competition.
19 Q. And at any given time, how many
20 females would be in this group?
21 A. At any time probably as many females
22 as there were males, sometimes more.
23 Q. And to your understanding, were a
24 number of these females, if I can say, citizens,
1047
1 just people from the neighborhood or working
2 girls, and I mean by working girls, legitimately
3 working girls?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was also a very big place, I am
6 talking about Faces, for girls to come to?
7 A. Oh, yes. It was one of the happening
8 places in town.
9 Q. And Faces is located right in a very
10 popular area for young people, wasn't it?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. In fact, it was right around Faces
13 when the Bulls won that -- one of their
14 championships that the cars got overturned and
15 the young people had spilled out into the
16 street. Are you aware of that area?
17 A. I was -- I don't believe I was around
18 when the Bulls won -- started winning their
19 championships.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a very small
21 area of very close -- there is Butch McGuire's,
22 Mother's, what's next to that, Treetops or --
23 THE WITNESS: No, but see Faces was a little
24 bit down the street. Faces was a little bit
1048
1 south of there. You had Butch McGuire's, you had
2 Mother's and you had a couple of other spots on
3 Division Street within about a two-block area and
4 then if you go up to State Street and you make a
5 right turn and you go south, it was about three
6 blocks up. It was past -- I lived in Newberry
7 Plaza which was about two blocks from Division
8 Street and you veer off on the side to Rush
9 Street and Faces was on Rush Street. It was
10 another block or two down.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Relatively close
12 proximity?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. We walked back and forth
14 a lot of times from Division Street to those
15 places.
16 BY MR. CARMELL:
17 Q. How old were you during this period of
18 time?
19 A. Well, I was a policeman when I was
20 20. That was in '62. Around '70, I was 28, 30
21 years old, and moved on up from there.
22 Q. Were the people who were within this
23 group that you've described about the same age?
24 A. Some were older than us. I mean, but,
1049
1 some of us -- like I say, Richie was, Richie had
2 to be a good 10 years or more older than us.
3 Q. He was an old 32 or 33, yeah.
4 A. He was an old 40 at the time.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. But there were some people older.
7 There were some older people. Marco was a bit
8 older than me. Some of the others, now, Bobby
9 was younger than me. Bobby Abbinanti was a few
10 years younger than me. They were various ages.
11 Q. Was there a lot of drinking?
12 A. On occasion, I mean, yes. Some of
13 these people drank a lot. Marco had a real bad
14 drinking problem. Others drank and obviously
15 were able to hold it.
16 Q. There were occasions where fights
17 broke out within the group, isn't that right?
18 A. Not within the group. Usually if a
19 fight broke out, it was some poor stranger coming
20 by and maybe talking to one of the girls and
21 somebody would get upset and these guys would do
22 a job on some people in there.
23 Q. Now, for what period of time did you
24 spend at Faces, by years, with this group?
1050
1 A. Probably three, four years.
2 Q. And when did that end?
3 A. Well, when I moved away from the
4 neighborhood, when I moved out to the suburbs,
5 then I would come down maybe once a week, once
6 every couple weeks or whatever. I moved away in,
7 let's see, about '82, '83 is when I moved out to
8 the suburbs.
9 Q. Now, how long a period of time did you
10 have an office by yourself? You moved away from
11 the Katz firm, I believe it is.
12 A. When I moved away, when I moved away
13 from Katz, it was to get my own office. I had an
14 office on the same floor where Johnny then moved
15 their office next door to me after we became
16 associated. I stayed there until I broke away
17 from them. Then I moved to 180 North and I moved
18 in with Bruce Wexler and some other attorneys up
19 there and I stayed there for about two, three
20 years, and then I formed a partnership with
21 Senator Lemke out on the south side and I moved
22 out to Archer Avenue on the south side.
23 Q. Was it a southern suburb that you
24 moved to?
1051
1 A. My own residence was in the southwest
2 suburbs, but my office was still in Chicago. It
3 was over on Archer Avenue in Chicago there.
4 Q. And how did your practice change, if
5 at all, when you formed your partnership with, or
6 moved in with Senator Lemke?
7 A. Well, I began a full service
8 partnership. I started doing -- we took in
9 everything from wills and from property matters
10 to personal injury. I did everything. At that
11 time, I was trying to break away from the
12 criminal practice and I probably had maybe 20
13 percent, 25 percent criminal work and the rest
14 was basically civil and civil related.
15 Q. And for what period of time were you
16 with Senator Lemke, the years?
17 A. For about three, four years, up until
18 a couple years before I began doing the work with
19 the Justice Department.
20 Q. And you began work with the Justice
21 Department in March of 1986, is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
23 Q. And you left the City of Chicago
24 permanently in what year?
1052
1 A. '89. I believe it was November. It
2 was late in the year, November, December of '89.
3 Q. Now, the 20 percent of your criminal
4 business with -- 20 percent of the business that
5 was criminal while with Senator Lemke, did all
6 that business come from Marco D'Amico and people
7 like him?
8 A. No. I had tried to break away from
9 them a few years before that. I had a bad
10 situation with Marco where they referred a case
11 to me, Frank Renella, and while I was
12 representing Frank Renella, it was brought to my
13 attention that he was a stool pigeon who had been
14 informing on some dope dealers and when I was
15 told that, I knew that something would happen to
16 Frank when they found out and I went and warned
17 him, and when I warned him, I was told I was
18 going to be killed afterwards for that, for not
19 doing what I was supposed to do.
20 Q. Who told you that?
21 A. Well, somebody called me and warned me
22 and I left town and when I came back, I talked to
23 Marco about that.
24 Q. Did you then stop doing business,
1053
1 criminal business, with the people we've talked
2 about?
3 A. For a short period of time, yes, sir.
4 Q. How long?
5 A. I'd say it was six months to a year.
6 I stopped doing business with Marco and Marco
7 indicated, of course, he would never give me more
8 business, et cetera, and I told him I didn't want
9 their business. I was still getting some other
10 cases. But that was one of the reasons, again,
11 why I had broken away from these people and I
12 didn't want their business at that time.
13 Q. Did you end your social relationship
14 with Marco D'Amico?
15 A. For a period of time, yes, sir.
16 Q. How long?
17 A. I'd say it was about maybe six months
18 to a year.
19 Q. Did you continue during that six
20 months to a year to frequent the various bars in
21 Chicago that you had talked about?
22 A. Not those bars. I began to spend a
23 lot more time around 26th Street, in that area,
24 rather than going down to the Rush Street and
1054
1 those places. I would still on occasion go down
2 there, but I began spending a lot more time right
3 there in the 26th Street area and in Chinatown.
4 I had been referred that case by Pat
5 Marcy with the Chinese people and I had become
6 very friendly with the Chinese people, with On
7 Leong, and I began spending time both in
8 Chinatown and also in 26th Street.
9 Q. With reference to the On Leong case,
10 you testified that the On Leong group paid you
11 $100,000, is that correct?
12 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
13 Q. Are you aware that Wilson Moy told the
14 FBI that he had paid you $150,000?
15 A. Wilson Moy lied then to the FBI.
16 Q. So the 302 that we have in evidence
17 here in which Wilson Moy says that he gave you
18 $150,000, of which he took $25,000 and you kept
19 $25,000, is a lie?
20 A. Oh, yes, sir. I brought all this to
21 their attention when I came in. There had been a
22 problem when I was in New York, I was
23 representing the same people on a matter in
24 Boston from Eddie Chin, from the main Chinese
1055
1 individual in New York, and while I was in New
2 York, I was questioned as to how much I got paid
3 on my case, and I wouldn't tell them because I,
4 for whatever reason, got the impression that
5 Wilson had pocketed something for himself on that
6 money out of New York, and when I came back, I
7 was invited to a convention back in Chicago, and
8 when I was there, I was with Wing, who was one of
9 their main enforcers and Wing confronted Wilson
10 Moy about the amount that they had really paid me
11 and how much he had pocketed, and I had a little
12 discussion then with Wilson Moy about that
13 indicating that, you know, I don't know or care
14 how much he got, you know, I wasn't going to tell
15 these people. Well, he beefed on himself and he
16 apparently told them that he had pocketed -- he
17 told the people in New York he had pocketed the
18 additional money. Marcy questioned me about
19 that.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the, aside from
21 what is true now, what is --
22 MR. CARMELL: Exhibit 42.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Just outline for me,
24 because there's a question --
1056
1 MR. CARMELL: It appears on Page 3, and
2 taking my cue from my fellow counselor, I'm going
3 to read the part.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Exhibit 42?
5 MR. CARMELL: Yes. It's page 3.
6 BY MR. CARMELL:
7 Q. Quote, "Concerning Cooley's fee, Moy
8 said Cooley told him jury trial would cost about
9 $75,000." Let me skip down because I'll get to
10 the sentence, the one sentence. Quote,
11 "According to Moy, the Olma, O-l-m-a, was
12 charged a total of $150,000. Of this Moy
13 maintained 125,000 went to Cooley and Wilson Moy
14 and Eddie Chan skimmed an additional 25,000 which
15 they split."
16 And the sum and substance of it is
17 your testimony is that that was a lie?
18 A. Well, again, Wilson Moy himself only
19 gave me 10,000 initially and then 40,000 after
20 the case, and I went to New York and I received
21 the additional 50,000 from Eddie when I was
22 brought to New York because they wanted to pay me
23 there. So actually Wilson only paid me 50,000.
24 I got the other 50,000 from Eddie back in New
1057
1 York.
2 Q. Whatever may be said of who gave what,
3 your testimony is that you received only $100,000
4 for the On Leong case?
5 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. It was
6 actually -- it wasn't the On Leong case. It was
7 Lenny Chow and two other people. It was on a
8 murder case.
9 Q. I want to talk about your testimony
10 concerning the dice game that took place a few
11 blocks away from the Hungry Hound Restaurant. Do
12 you remember that testimony?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And you testified that you were there
15 for several years in 1978, maybe to early '80s,
16 is that correct?
17 A. It was somewhere around that time,
18 yes, sir.
19 Q. And how many times would you have
20 attended that dice game during that period?
21 A. A number of occasions. Probably, I'd
22 say, a dozen or more times I would stop in.
23 Q. You testified that all kinds of people
24 were at that game, is that right?
1058
1 A. Well, there were a lot of people. A
2 lot of people were at the game, yes, sir.
3 Q. And that there was a lot of -- it was
4 a dice game, there was a lot of yelling and
5 shouting that went on at the game?
6 A. Oh, yes. It was quite often very
7 noisy in there. Again, it wasn't a couple
8 blocks. It was down the block. I don't believe
9 it was two blocks away. It was across the street
10 and down the block on the north side of the
11 street, but it wouldn't have been two blocks away
12 from there.
13 Q. Were there, on the occasions you were
14 there, were there people who you did not
15 recognize or wouldn't identify as being organized
16 crime people in the game?
17 A. Well, there were people I didn't
18 know. I mean, there were certainly, I'm sure,
19 some gamblers there that may have just strictly
20 been gamblers and not organized crime people.
21 Q. Now, you got into the game, or got
22 into the room because somebody who was known
23 brought you to the game, isn't that right?
24 A. Well, I did not call Larry to tell him
1059
1 I was coming that night. I just went on the spur
2 of the moment. I remember I went there with Cal
3 Sirkin the first time.
4 Q. And when you went there, the person
5 behind the door saw you and wouldn't let you in
6 until he saw Cal Sirkin, isn't that right?
7 A. The person that was there, yes, sir.
8 The person that was there would not let me in
9 when I first -- when I knocked.
10 Q. Now, you said that certain people
11 stood around, or sat around, didn't play the
12 game. Do you recall that?
13 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
14 Q. You were one of them?
15 A. I was one of them.
16 Q. And you mentioned Rich Catazone, he
17 was one, is that correct?
18 A. On occasion, Richie would be there.
19 There were a few times when Richie would be
20 there, yes, sir.
21 Q. And he wouldn't be playing?
22 A. I don't recall Richie playing the
23 game, not when I was there.
24 Q. And your testimony was on several
1060
1 occasions a person you identified as Leo Caruso
2 was there?
3 A. On a couple of occasions, yes, sir.
4 Q. And did you ever see him at the game,
5 playing the game?
6 A. I never saw him playing, no, sir.
7 Q. Could he have been playing the game?
8 A. I mean, he may have on occasion, but
9 when I saw him, I didn't notice him playing at
10 the game. He was just there.
11 Q. And how long would you spend at the
12 game?
13 A. I might be there an hour, hour and a
14 half, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little
15 less.
16 Q. And what would you do while you were
17 there?
18 A. Just chitchat with people.
19 Q. So you were not watching the game at
20 all times?
21 A. I mean, I would be watching it. I'd
22 be curious when there would be a lot of activity,
23 I'd watch somebody win and lose. But, again, I
24 say I never played. I may have played once or
1061
1 twice for some short period of time, but dice was
2 not my game, and, you know, I just basically
3 would be there because I liked being there.
4 Q. How big was the room?
5 A. It was a good size room. Well, you
6 walked through the front, you went through the
7 front part first, it was like a store, it would
8 have been a store, probably, then there was an
9 areaway you walked back and you go back into a
10 big room in the back, a much bigger room in the
11 back, which then would lead out somewhere to the
12 alley. I guess, I was told they had an escape
13 route out there which would have gotten them out
14 the back in case there was trouble.
15 Q. How big was the room where the one
16 dice table was, where it was being played?
17 A. The room was actually probably a
18 little bit bigger than this, the room we're in.
19 Q. Do you have any -- can you give any
20 dimensions?
21 A. Oh, I don't know. This room is maybe
22 about 25 feet, 30 feet.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: About 20 by 50. What
24 do you say, gentlemen?
1062
1 BY THE WITNESS:
2 A. I'd say the room was probably about
3 the same size as this.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Maybe a little bit
5 longer than 50, a little bit longer than 50.
6 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me interject one
7 comment. You characterized it as one dice
8 table. He may -- you know, the record will stand
9 for itself, but I think he testified yesterday
10 that there might have been two.
11 MR. CARMELL: I believe his testimony was
12 there was another room where there was a dice
13 table, but at least he testified to one was in
14 use.
15 BY THE WITNESS:
16 A. No. I am saying this is a long time
17 back. I remember when you walked in, there would
18 be one table they would be playing at that was
19 directly in front of us as we were there. There
20 was like standing room and room to walk back a
21 little bit behind it. And I am almost sure over
22 a little bit to the right of that as you walk in,
23 I am pretty sure there was another dice table.
24 There was a table of sorts. I am pretty sure it
1063
1 was another dice table. Again, I am pretty
2 sure -- I am almost sure there were times when
3 there would be a couple of games going on, but,
4 again, I am not positive of that. I am pretty
5 sure there was a second dice table in there.
6 Whether it was being used or not I don't remember
7 right now.
8 Q. How many people would be in the room
9 at any given time?
10 A. Oh, I'd say probably 30 people, 30
11 people, maybe a few more.
12 Q. Now, the person you identified as
13 Frank Caruso, how many times did you see him in
14 that dice game during the period of time?
15 A. On a couple of occasions I saw him in
16 there.
17 Q. And did you ever see him playing?
18 A. I don't recall him playing. I don't
19 recall seeing him play. I just remember him
20 being there with a few other people.
21 Q. When you say with a few other people,
22 what do you mean by that?
23 A. There would be three or four or five
24 people just like standing in the back of the
1064
1 scenes, just milling around there. They had food
2 and stuff that was laid out there and whatever
3 and stuff for you to drink if you wanted
4 something to drink.
5 Q. So there was -- I am going to
6 grandiose it calling it a buffet. There was a
7 table there of food and it was free to go back
8 there and get food and you would see a person
9 identified as Frank Caruso on occasion, on the
10 occasions you saw him, at least one of the places
11 that you saw him was at that food table?
12 A. And milling around the room. It was
13 like a bizarre setting. As I say, the room was
14 relatively -- a relatively dark room. There were
15 lights in there, but it was a relatively dark
16 room. It was like a very interesting
17 environment. It was a very electric environment
18 in there.
19 Q. Returning for a minute to your
20 practice, you were very careful, were you not,
21 not to discuss the cases -- well, strike that.
22 If you took a case, you did not tell
23 the person who gave you the gambling case that
24 you were going to fix it, you just told him you'd
1065
1 take care of it, is that right?
2 A. Again, it would depend on the person.
3 I always assumed when I was dealing with people
4 that I was talking into a wire. That was always
5 my own practice when I practiced. When I would
6 talk to what I would call a stranger, somebody
7 that was not let's say a Marco or a Larry or a
8 Richie or Johnny or Patty or somebody that I was
9 in business with consistently, I would be very
10 careful how I would say things. I would quite
11 often indicate to a person coming in -- even when
12 a bookmaker would come in, a lot of times I never
13 told them what I was going to do. Marco would
14 send the people to me. They would come in. A
15 lot of times I wouldn't even have them come in.
16 A lot of times I would say I'll meet you in
17 court. I'll handle it. They a lot of times
18 would want you to say the magic words.
19 I would just say I will do what I can
20 do. I am pretty sure you'll be okay or I am
21 pretty sure there won't be a problem. It was not
22 that often that I would talk to a stranger and
23 tell them that I was going to fix something. I
24 would not use those words.
1066
1 Q. Who did you tell that you had fixed
2 the Harry Aleman case?
3 A. I didn't tell anybody other than the
4 people I was dealing with.
5 Q. Which would have been Pat Marcy?
6 A. Well, Pat Marcy wanted it done. I
7 mean, so, I just -- I never said to Pat, the case
8 is fixed. I said it will be taken care of and
9 the right thing will happen. I never discussed
10 that with -- well, Johnny D'Arco. I told my
11 partner obviously. At the time I was partners
12 with Johnny D'Arco. I discussed it with Pat
13 DeLeo I am sure because they were with me and
14 they were part of our group, but I did not
15 tell -- I did not tell any of my other friends
16 obviously that I was doing this.
17 Q. And you didn't tell them afterwards
18 that you had done it?
19 A. Well, not until I came forward and
20 started working with the federal authorities.
21 Q. Up until March of 1980 -- let me go
22 back. The Aleman case was fixed when?
23 A. I believe it was in '77, I believe.
24 Q. Between '77 and 1986, you did not tell
1067
1 any of your friends that you had fixed the case?
2 A. I can't think of anybody I did tell or
3 I would want to tell. That was not something I
4 would ever discuss with strangers. When I say
5 strangers, I mean somebody who wasn't part of our
6 world. I just didn't -- I had my own friends. I
7 had a lot of good friends and legitimate friends
8 that I dealt with. I would never discuss
9 anything like that with them.
10 Q. Did you tell your non-legitimate
11 friends, aside from the people you just
12 mentioned, that you had fixed the Harry Aleman
13 case?
14 A. I didn't tell, but I was aware a lot
15 of them knew it. A lot of them found out, but
16 not from me. I am talking about the organized
17 crime people. A lot of them. Well, see, when I
18 fixed the case, Marco was involved in the fixing
19 of the case. When I met with Harry, the first
20 time I met Harry to discuss the fact that I was
21 taking care of everything, Marco arranged the
22 meeting. Marco was the one who arranged to meet
23 in a hotel over there up in the northwest
24 suburbs, and so who all Marco told I don't know,
1068
1 but obviously Marco knew about it. He was
2 inter-involved in it.
3 Q. Let's go to Counselor's Row. There
4 was a table which has now been described as the
5 First Ward table, and when you would be there,
6 who would sit at that table?
7 A. Freddie Roti was there every day for
8 breakfast, he was there for lunch, he would be
9 there on again, off again.
10 When I first began with this
11 particular group, Pat Marcy would be there
12 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday
13 initially. He would be there four days a week,
14 but Pat would never usually come in until about
15 11:30, twelve o'clock. Freddie would usually be
16 gone about 4:00, 4:30, 5:00. Freddie would no
17 longer be there. Pat would be there. You'd
18 have -- I mean, a lot of elected officials, a
19 lot of mob guys would come there, some other
20 lawyers, a few other lawyers that were
21 inter-involved with these people and sometimes
22 Freddie would have a lot of other alderman, the
23 city clerk, the city clerk would be there.
24 Basically political people and inter-connected
1069
1 people. As I say, a lot of union, different
2 union officials from all around the county would
3 be coming back and forth to the table.
4 Q. Let me try and break this down a bit
5 if I might. Counselor's Row was located on what
6 street?
7 A. On LaSalle Street.
8 Q. And it was directly west of the City
9 Hall/County Building at that time, was it not?
10 A. That's correct, directly across the
11 street.
12 Q. And that's where all of the county
13 offices were, all of the city offices were and
14 some of the courts were there or they were just
15 in the building that was a block away?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. I don't think the Daley Center had
18 been built at that time, had it?
19 A. Oh, yeah, but it wasn't called the
20 Daley Center initially. Initially -- in fact, a
21 lot of cases were in that court, criminal and
22 civil, but it wasn't called the Daley Center. It
23 was called something else before that, but it was
24 there.
1070
1 Q. So all of the workings of the city and
2 county were in the building that was just across
3 the street to the east of Counselor's Row?
4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
5 Q. And there -- at the First Ward table
6 as I understand it while you would be there,
7 there would be just numbers of people coming up
8 and going, politicians, is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Judges?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. City officials?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. County officials?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Labor union officials?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. People you have identified as
19 organized crime people?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And at any given time when you would
22 be there at the table, how many persons would be
23 seated or near the table who would be described
24 as what we have just gone through?
1071
1 MR. BOSTWICK: I am sorry. Wait a minute.
2 That seems too broad a question.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, the question is
4 at any given time how many of these either
5 politicals, OC or public officials?
6 MR. BOSTWICK: So is he going to break that
7 down into groups?
8 MR. CARMELL: No, I am not asking groups. I
9 am just asking how many people could be at a
10 table at a given time or standing at the table.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: The description was
12 there are no really strangers hanging around
13 there. They had to fall into this group.
14 THE WITNESS: If you weren't invited, if you
15 weren't part of either the inter-circle or were
16 there for some specific reason for a short period
17 of time, it was -- as I say, it was like
18 Freddie's table early in the morning. Freddie
19 would have breakfast for as long as I knew him
20 almost every day there. He would be there at
21 like eight o'clock. A lot of different alderman
22 would be there at that particular time and you
23 would have -- like the city clerk was quite often
24 there. Stanley was there a lot and would be
1072
1 there. He would have a few of his people with
2 him. There would be other people inter-connected
3 with the alderman.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Stanley?
5 BY MR. CARMELL:
6 Q. Kusper?
7 A. Kusper. For a long time Stanley would
8 be there. Stanley would be there in the morning
9 sometimes with Freddie's group.
10 Then when Marcy would come in, it like
11 became -- it was like Marcy's table and so
12 Freddie would be fine and with his people until
13 about noon. When Pat would come in, if there
14 were no open chairs, the people would have to get
15 up and Pat usually had the same seat. Pat
16 usually sat where he could face what was coming
17 in. He liked to sit in the corner either against
18 the one wall or the wall to the left of him where
19 he could see everything coming and going around
20 him.
21 When Pat was there, there was rarely
22 an open chair from noon until about maybe two,
23 three o'clock. Then Pat would quite often go
24 upstairs to the ward office and do whatever he
1073
1 does. Then sometimes the table would -- there
2 would be nobody there. I would be there by
3 myself with my friends sometimes during that
4 period.
5 Q. So the First Ward office was upstairs
6 of Counselor's Row?
7 A. That was upstairs, yes, sir.
8 Q. And weren't there numbers of people
9 who would come by just to say hello, how are you,
10 Pat, how is it going?
11 A. Oh, all of the time, all of the time.
12 Q. Who didn't have anything more to say
13 than that?
14 A. I mean every day. I mean, we are
15 talking about hundreds of people probably in a
16 given day would walk by and just say hi and Pat
17 would just say hi and they would go about their
18 business.
19 Q. Now, you testified that legitimate, as
20 you put it, First Ward business was discussed at
21 the table. What would you describe as legitimate
22 First Ward business?
23 A. Well, non-fixing of cases.
24 Q. Sir, don't give me the negatives. Try
1074
1 and give me the positives.
2 A. Again, there were a series of alderman
3 down there a lot where they would be discussing
4 different political things that were going on,
5 they would be discussing parties or events or a
6 lot of things. Sometimes people from the ward
7 might come and sit and talk to the alderman there
8 about different problems or different things.
9 There were a whole series of legitimate things
10 that would take place in the every day -- in the
11 every day comings and goings.
12 Q. When you wanted to speak to Pat Marcy
13 about as you put it dirty things, you would go
14 out, you would do one of two things, you would go
15 out into the hall or go to the booth near the
16 register, is that right?
17 A. Well, I would walk in, a lot of times
18 it would be arranged. Pat would leave a message
19 for me or tell me to come. As I would see him,
20 when I would walk up, as soon as he would see me
21 we would make contact and I knew what to do. He
22 would make contact or I would, I would walk out
23 into the hall and he would come walking out right
24 behind me. Other times I would come in there not
1075
1 knowing something had to be done and when I would
2 walk in, as soon as Pat would see me he would
3 just motion me and he would go as a rule out into
4 the hall, but sometimes like when it was real
5 crowded, a lot of people were out there, he would
6 walk to the back of the room or on a given
7 occasion walk over to a booth alongside the cash
8 register, a short distance from the table.
9 Q. You gave in testimony instances with a
10 person you identified as Bruno Caruso having gone
11 out into the hall with Pat Marcy --
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. -- on a couple of occasions?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And how many people on a given day
16 would go out into the hall with Pat Marcy while
17 you were there?
18 A. Some days nobody, other days one,
19 maybe two people, sometimes maybe even more
20 depending. I mean, Judge Scotillo would come
21 there a lot because Tony ran things over for him
22 over in the Civic Center. It used to be called
23 the Civic Center before the Daley Center. He
24 used to come over there and a lot of times he
1076
1 would come over there two, three times a day when
2 they were doing different deeds of theirs. Other
3 people too would come sometimes once, twice a
4 week, people like myself.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is this you are
6 talking about might come over two, three times?
7 THE WITNESS: Tony Scotillo when he was over
8 there. He was the one who did a lot of the
9 illegal things for Pat with the other judges in
10 particular.
11 BY MR. CARMELL:
12 Q. When you saw the person identified as
13 Bruno Caruso, were there other people in and
14 around the First Ward table when he came in?
15 A. There were always people around the
16 table. I mean, when I say always, I can't think
17 of many times when there weren't a lot of people,
18 a lot of people there.
19 Q. Did you know at the time you saw Bruno
20 Caruso whether he held any position with any
21 union?
22 A. When I first met them and saw them,
23 no, I didn't know. When I very first saw certain
24 people, I didn't. I gained knowledge after a
1077
1 while that they had some position. What exactly
2 it was, I didn't know. I didn't know what any of
3 them did.
4 Q. And that carried through to your
5 testimony that you knew about Bruno Caruso in
6 Counselor's Row?
7 A. That's correct, even up until the time
8 I came to work for the government I never knew
9 what these people did or didn't do. I never
10 asked.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, if you're at
12 a spot, you may want a physiological break here.
13 MR. CARMELL: I think this is a good time
14 for it, if I might.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Take a
16 10-minute break.
17 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
18 BY MR. CARMELL:
19 Q. Putting an end to the Counselor's Row
20 and people who would go out in the hall with Pat
21 Marcy, let me get the categories, there would be
22 judges, is that correct?
23 A. Well, there were a few judges I saw
24 him dealing with, yes, sir.
1078
1 Q. Some politicians?
2 A. There were, yes, sir, there were a few
3 politicians I would see him go outside with.
4 Q. Some attorneys?
5 A. A few attorneys, yes, sir.
6 Q. And some people who you didn't know
7 who they were?
8 A. Well, I mean, you know, some I -- some
9 others that I knew and some I didn't know, yes,
10 sir. There were some people I didn't know.
11 Q. Now, let's talk about the Rosewood
12 Restaurant. Where was it located?
13 A. You mean the Redwood, you mean?
14 Q. Redwood. I'm sorry.
15 A. It was on, I believe around 31st
16 Street and it was right around, I think,
17 Wallace. It was right there in the center of the
18 activity.
19 Q. Was it in the middle of the block?
20 A. No, it was on the corner.
21 Q. And so it was on the corner of Wallace
22 and 31st?
23 A. I'm indicating it was 31st or 32nd,
24 either 31st or 32nd. I think 31st was the busy
1079
1 street. It was not on a busy street, east-west
2 street. It might have been 32nd. And I believe
3 it was like Wallace or one of those streets right
4 there. It was on the southwest corner.
5 Q. And when did you first begin
6 frequenting Rosewood?
7 A. The Redwood.
8 Q. Redwood.
9 A. Redwood.
10 Q. Let me write this down.
11 A. Oh, I started probably 20 years ago, I
12 started going there, I went there for probably
13 about 8, 9, 10 years, starting about '7 -- in the
14 late '70s, early '80s.
15 Q. And when did you stop going to the
16 Redwood?
17 A. When I left town. I wore a wire in
18 there on a few occasions, not with Nicky. Nicky
19 was a straight -- Nicky wasn't organized crime.
20 He wasn't involved with those people, but it was
21 his bar, he owned the bar. But I wore a wire in
22 there when I talked to Dirge and a couple other
23 occasions I wore a wire in there when I was
24 dealing with some of the organized crime people
1080
1 in the neighborhood.
2 Q. And where would the barbecue be held?
3 A. He'd sometimes barbecue right out in
4 front. He had a grill he'd put out in front.
5 Q. Out front where?
6 A. On, I believe it would have been 32nd
7 Street, right there on the sidewalk.
8 Q. And were there tables outside?
9 A. He would have, like, like a little
10 stool, there would be like stools over there
11 along side the wall of the restaurant and I
12 imagine there were tables we put out there. The
13 food would then be put on the tables, and so
14 forth.
15 Q. Well, when you were out there at the
16 barbecue, where would you be standing or seated?
17 A. Just standing around there. There was
18 an area of sidewalk that was right there along
19 side the restaurant.
20 Q. And it ran along 32nd Street?
21 A. I believe it was 32nd Street there.
22 Q. Well, one of the number streets, 31st,
23 32nd Street, would that be fair?
24 A. Yes, sir.
1081
1 Q. Which side of 32nd Street -- let me
2 call it 32nd Street with the understanding we may
3 be off one or two. Which side of 32nd Street was
4 the restaurant located?
5 A. On the south side.
6 Q. And which way did the traffic go that
7 would pass by the restaurant closest to --
8 A. Both streets were two-way streets. He
9 had the restaurant -- it was more a bar, it
10 wasn't a restaurant, it was basically a bar.
11 They may have had sandwiches and stuff there.
12 And when I say he had a barbecue, that was just
13 his own thing. He sometimes for the, you know,
14 for his customers, he would have a barbecue out
15 in front and would just barbecue something. But
16 it was mainly just a bar where people went and
17 drank.
18 But it sat right in the corner, so on
19 the one side, you had, I believe, that was
20 Wallace, and I'm saying I think it was Wallace,
21 one of the streets that was pretty active with
22 traffic going up and down, and on 32nd Street,
23 and I think, again, it was 32nd, you had traffic
24 going east and west.
1082
1 Q. And the barbecue would be held on the
2 32nd Street side of the restaurant?
3 A. Well, when I say barbecue, he would be
4 barbecuing stuff out there. As I remember, any
5 time he did it, he usually did it right there
6 because there was a lot of room right there
7 alongside the restaurant.
8 Q. And a person who would be at the
9 barbecue would be on the 32nd Street side of the
10 restaurant, is that correct?
11 A. Well, we'd be standing on both sides.
12 I mean, you'd walk around the front, people would
13 be walking around on the one street or walking on
14 the other street. We'd be milling around there.
15 Q. So the customers, let me call them
16 customers, including you, would be milling around
17 on 32nd Street or on the Wallace side, is that
18 correct?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And there would be foot traffic, is
21 that correct?
22 A. Not a lot of foot traffic around
23 there, no, there was not -- there was never a lot
24 of foot traffic around there other than people
1083
1 coming to the bar.
2 Q. And as far as automobile traffic, it
3 was a well trafficked area, is that correct?
4 A. There would be activity up and down
5 both the streets.
6 Q. And for what years did Nicky run or
7 serve this barbecue?
8 A. I mean, as long as I knew him. I
9 mean, he would on a given occasion do it, like
10 for the 4th of July, periods like that.
11 Sometimes he would just do it.
12 Q. Now, the barbecue obviously was held
13 when there was warm weather, is that correct?
14 A. I don't remember if we had it during
15 the cold weather or not. We may have on a given
16 occasion on the spur of the moment done
17 something, but usually it would be when the
18 weather was nice.
19 Q. Now, you identified having seen Angelo
20 LaPietra driving through the neighborhood. Do
21 you remember that?
22 A. On different occasions we would see
23 him drive through, yes, sir.
24 Q. Did you know Mr. LaPietra's
1084
1 automobile?
2 A. He would be -- he usually had the same
3 car, as I remember, for a period of time, he had
4 the same car. Other times he would be in
5 different cars with different people.
6 Q. And where did Mr. LaPietra sit in the
7 car?
8 A. He would usually be in the passenger's
9 side. Somebody else was usually driving.
10 Q. The windows wouldn't be rolled down,
11 would they?
12 A. Sometimes in the summertime. I mean,
13 the windows would be open on occasion.
14 Q. I want you to use all of the
15 experience you've had in all of these years and
16 all this testimony. According to your
17 testimony -- and LaPietra is the boss of the 26th
18 Street area, is that right?
19 A. He was, I believe he was more than
20 that for some period, just --
21 Q. Even higher up than that?
22 A. He seemed to be, yes, sir.
23 Q. And Angelo LaPietra is driving through
24 the neighborhood sitting in the front seat with
1085
1 the window down on the passenger's side?
2 A. Oh, there were occasions. That was
3 his neighborhood. That was his territory.
4 Q. I see.
5 A. I'm trying to remember, but as I
6 remember, the windows, they may have been up,
7 they may have been down, but I don't think it was
8 a very secure situation when he would go through.
9 Q. Mr. LaPietra was in the passenger side
10 of the car, is that correct?
11 A. He usually had -- I didn't usually see
12 him driving. Somebody else would normally be
13 driving.
14 Q. And he'd be in the passenger side of
15 the car?
16 A. Usually, yes, sir.
17 Q. All right. And that would -- the
18 passenger side of the car was the side that was
19 closest to your line of vision?
20 A. On occasion. It would depend if they
21 came down 31st or 32nd or if they went down
22 Wallace, but if he was on Wallace, he would not
23 be closest to me. The driver would be closest to
24 me. The other people might be there, you know.
1086
1 Q. So if they came down Wallace, for you
2 to identify Mr. LaPietra, you would have had to
3 look across the lanes of traffic through the
4 driver of the car and then see Mr. LaPietra in
5 the passenger side, isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And were there other people -- I know
8 that you said that you saw the person you
9 identified as Bruno Caruso in the car with
10 Mr. LaPietra. Where was he sitting?
11 A. In the back seat. He'd be in the back
12 seat. Again, I saw them on more than one
13 occasion. So, I mean, on which particular
14 occasion? Usually there would be -- a lot of
15 times, again, I probably saw Angelo maybe a
16 couple dozen or more times over a long period,
17 before he went to the penitentiary. He was gone,
18 I believe, when I left town. But before that, I
19 mean, a lot of times you would see him. It was
20 not an infrequent situation.
21 Q. When, as you testified, you recall
22 seeing the person Bruno Caruso in the automobile
23 with Angelo LaPietra, where was Mr. Caruso
24 sitting?
1087
1 A. He would have been in the back seat,
2 as I remember.
3 Q. On the driver's side of the back seat
4 or the passenger's side of the back seat?
5 A. I really can't be specific. I really
6 don't know. I don't remember.
7 Q. Were there occasions when you saw the
8 automobile with Mr. LaPietra that had three
9 people in the back seat?
10 A. I don't think so. Usually it would be
11 a couple people. Usually it would be a couple
12 people. And quite often it was just him and the
13 driver. Quite often it would be just him and the
14 driver going wherever they went.
15 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Cooley, that you
16 didn't observe this, somebody told you that a
17 person in the car was Angelo LaPietra?
18 A. No, sir. I've never discussed that
19 with anybody else.
20 Q. You didn't know Angelo LaPietra
21 personally, did you?
22 A. I knew who he was. I knew him to see
23 him, but I never spoke to him other than to say
24 hello, other than to say hi.
1088
1 Q. Again, I want to know how did you know
2 it was Angelo LaPietra's automobile?
3 A. Because the people I was with, I'd be
4 there with Dirge, I'd be there with Frank, I'd be
5 there with Larry or somebody else, I mean, these
6 people all knew him.
7 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who?
9 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?
10 THE WITNESS: Dirge's brother, Frank
11 Imperato.
12 BY MR. CARMELL:
13 Q. And these people would say, and I'm
14 just coining a phrase, there goes Angie in his
15 car or there goes Angelo or Hook's car?
16 A. Well, I mean, they never talked about
17 him with any kind of disrespect, those people.
18 They would wave sometimes, he would wave back
19 sometimes. Sometimes they would just go by and
20 we -- I might make some comments about it. I
21 would make silly comments about the entourage or
22 I wonder about who is in trouble today or things
23 like that, but these people would never joke
24 about that.
1089
1 Q. And the car that you say Mr. LaPietra
2 was in would drive by the Redwood, is that
3 correct?
4 A. Going through the neighborhood, yes,
5 sir.
6 Q. I want to talk about the
7 Italian-American Club. When did you become a
8 member of the club?
9 A. It was probably around 19 -- about
10 1980, somewhere around there, '80, '81.
11 Q. And how long did you remain a member?
12 A. I paid dues one time and never paid a
13 second time. I paid dues one time and I got
14 stuck with some tickets, a lot during that
15 period, every time they had one of their
16 so-called benefits, I was stuck with a whole
17 bunch of tickets and I wound up eating them, I
18 wound up buying all of them, so I was there for,
19 I'd say, for one season, one year, whatever it
20 might be, but I never paid a second time.
21 Q. And the tickets that you purchased,
22 how many -- what was the dollar value of those?
23 What did you have to pay?
24 A. $100, $150. They would just give me a
1090
1 certain amount of tickets and just say -- you
2 know, and they expected you to sell them. You
3 were expected to sell them. I mean, everybody
4 would be selling these things, so there was no
5 way you were going to sell them. I wound up just
6 giving them the money.
7 Q. Where was the Italian-American Social
8 Club located when you were a member?
9 A. The first time when I went, I believe
10 they had actually two places, there was one place
11 a little bit south, a little bit south of where
12 the Redwood was, on one of the north-south
13 streets, but then they also had, the main place
14 was over on 26th Street.
15 Q. Did the main place come in after the
16 little one was closed?
17 A. I remember being at both of those.
18 And, again, I can't specifically say whether they
19 were both open at the same time. But initially I
20 believe I went to a club that was a little bit
21 south of where the Redwood was. And I tried to
22 think of this when I talked to him a couple weeks